And you'll get what you want, no problem!
I wasn't really strictly meaning a 'musical'. I just meant the songs could be included from the book. Yes, it would have to be done with meticulous care, but if done in the spirit of the book it could be stunningly successful. The lyrics are already written! Though carrying it off would be a major achievement, we know that. With all the money they'll be spending, surely they can get a songster and a choreographer who can help create cinema magic! (The Hobbit has it's own magic already). I'm serious. All we need is some Directorial bravery, the right amount of flair, and a degree of competence arising to genius! That's where truly great movies come from...
This movie will play safe as it can, and not be a disaster, and earn some impressive commercial success, but it will also miss a fantastic opportunity. Yes, GB, you'll get what you want, I did say that. A lovely dark, rather flat (sorry, safe!) prelude to the Lord of the Rings...
Odo
Thread: HOBBIT SONGS
Hmmm! I see no reason the songs can't be incorporated as written in the book, lyrics and all. So maybe I just misinterpreted your point Odo 
. But you confuse me when you say "choreography", implying a song and dance routine in the Musical Tradition. Also by suggesting it could be like The Wizard of Oz.
I really enjoyed the way singing was handled in LotR. It seemed natural and unforced, and was completely integrated into the story, whether it was Sam adding his verse to the Elven Lament, or Pippin's jawdroppingly heartbreaking ballad
, or Merry and Pippin's Booze Fueled Pub Song and Dance 
.
A Musical Number on the other hand takes one completely out of a story. Everything stops for 5 minutes or so, while people sing dialogue at each other, and dance troupes invade the screen
.
What if I pose the question this way: Do you want Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, or something more realistic that simply incorporates the actual lyrics from the book (which I would totally second if that's what you mean)?
[b:25ny3egs]GB[/b:25ny3egs]
. But you confuse me when you say "choreography", implying a song and dance routine in the Musical Tradition. Also by suggesting it could be like The Wizard of Oz. I really enjoyed the way singing was handled in LotR. It seemed natural and unforced, and was completely integrated into the story, whether it was Sam adding his verse to the Elven Lament, or Pippin's jawdroppingly heartbreaking ballad
, or Merry and Pippin's Booze Fueled Pub Song and Dance . A Musical Number on the other hand takes one completely out of a story. Everything stops for 5 minutes or so, while people sing dialogue at each other, and dance troupes invade the screen
.What if I pose the question this way: Do you want Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, or something more realistic that simply incorporates the actual lyrics from the book (which I would totally second if that's what you mean)?
[b:25ny3egs]GB[/b:25ny3egs]
Should the songs in The Hobbit be removed from the Movie?
I must show my hand!
I love those songs: dwarves threatening to smash crockery; elves "tra la lalling" down in the valley; goblins whip-snapping; and don't forget "Lazy Lob and Crazy Cob"! Oh yes, and all those "little birdies" in those pine trees!
Odo
I must show my hand!
I love those songs: dwarves threatening to smash crockery; elves "tra la lalling" down in the valley; goblins whip-snapping; and don't forget "Lazy Lob and Crazy Cob"! Oh yes, and all those "little birdies" in those pine trees!
Odo
Considering how well Jackson handled the singing, from pub "karaoke" Merry and Pippin style, to Ethereal Elf song, I don't see why not. It's already been established, so it wouldn't seem out of place to the non-book reading audience.
The only thing that might seem a little odd to people would be seeing drunken carousing Mirkwood Elves . People are more used to the "Vulcan" type of of Elves, all serious, Noble and compassionate, and just a wee bit Arrogant 
. Not ones hunting and singing like Klingons . That was why it was cool to have ol' Legolas getting down with Gimli and boozing it up . He was the Cool Elf 
.
[b:1lb0oztt]GB[/b:1lb0oztt]
The only thing that might seem a little odd to people would be seeing drunken carousing Mirkwood Elves
. People are more used to the "Vulcan" type of of Elves, all serious, Noble and compassionate, and just a wee bit Arrogant . Not ones hunting and singing like Klingons . That was why it was cool to have ol' Legolas getting down with Gimli and boozing it up . He was the Cool Elf .[b:1lb0oztt]GB[/b:1lb0oztt]
This is sort of related, I think??? When the Wizard of Oz adaptation was made, a whole heap of songs were put into the movie. I did not come to the Wizard of Oz through the book, and in fact have been not able to get through it when I've tried, so the movie is all I know. I think it's a classic movie - probably my favorite movie of all. Some folk think it was just plain wrong - especially turning it into a musical! So I'm no Oz (the book) Purist (or Fundamentalist!)
Anyhow, this leads me to think about The Hobbit. As everyone knows, there are a host of songs (mostly comical) in the book, but ironicaly enough, I feel most of them won't make the movie version. If The Hobbit was made into (a bit of) a musical, would it become another Wizard of Oz? The Wizard of Oz whilst clearly something for children (as well as adults!) definitely has it's darker moments. One of its weaknesses in my opinion is that it apparently toned down some of its "scarier" bits!
What I'm getting at in my meandering way is, could The Hobbit stick to its originasl tone, with all its musicality, comicality, scariness and adventuresomeness, and become another absolute all time classic for all the family? I think so! We won't get it though - because its the Lord of the Rings now... (And, for the record, I don't agree with Tolkien: he got The Hobbit absolutely and perfectly right! Yes, I'm a Fundamentalist when it comes to The Hobbit)
Odo
Anyhow, this leads me to think about The Hobbit. As everyone knows, there are a host of songs (mostly comical) in the book, but ironicaly enough, I feel most of them won't make the movie version. If The Hobbit was made into (a bit of) a musical, would it become another Wizard of Oz? The Wizard of Oz whilst clearly something for children (as well as adults!) definitely has it's darker moments. One of its weaknesses in my opinion is that it apparently toned down some of its "scarier" bits!
What I'm getting at in my meandering way is, could The Hobbit stick to its originasl tone, with all its musicality, comicality, scariness and adventuresomeness, and become another absolute all time classic for all the family? I think so! We won't get it though - because its the Lord of the Rings now... (And, for the record, I don't agree with Tolkien: he got The Hobbit absolutely and perfectly right! Yes, I'm a Fundamentalist when it comes to The Hobbit)
Odo
As a wee laddy, The Wizard of Oz was one of the first films that I recognized as being different from the book it was based on. It was then I began to appreciate different versions of stories as long as they worked in their own right. Now the songs in Oz were particularly good, as were many musicals up through the early 70s. After that most musicals really began to suck 
.
So I can appreciate Old Musicals as a medium closely related to Stage Plays. But in terms of Realistic (or even Surrealist) Films, I really don't care for Musicals that try to bridge that Media divide. It just doesn't work. It's just highly unrealistic for people to burst into choreographed song and dance routines in every major event in their lives.
Therefore, I really would dislike a version of The Hiobbit that was presented also as a Musical in todays terms. A Stage Play on Film version, OK. But I would be Extremely Dissatisfied if that were the only version available. There are very reasonable ways to introduce the songs from The Hobbit book into the film, as Jackson did in LotR, without turning it into The Wizard of Oz.
Gimme my Realistic Hobbit Movie NOW
(and you can have a theatrical musical version later ).
[b:29kjnr1y]GB[/b:29kjnr1y]
.So I can appreciate Old Musicals as a medium closely related to Stage Plays. But in terms of Realistic (or even Surrealist) Films, I really don't care for Musicals that try to bridge that Media divide. It just doesn't work. It's just highly unrealistic for people to burst into choreographed song and dance routines in every major event in their lives.
Therefore, I really would dislike a version of The Hiobbit that was presented also as a Musical in todays terms. A Stage Play on Film version, OK. But I would be Extremely Dissatisfied if that were the only version available. There are very reasonable ways to introduce the songs from The Hobbit book into the film, as Jackson did in LotR, without turning it into The Wizard of Oz.
Gimme my Realistic Hobbit Movie NOW
(and you can have a theatrical musical version later ). [b:29kjnr1y]GB[/b:29kjnr1y]
Darn tooting I want the words from the book!
What I meant by choreography, refers to the movement of actors that will acccompany the words being sung. The singing might not even be accompanied by music - just voices - though I don't see why, if the right music was composed, it could not work beautifully. Actual 'dance' might be used when the goblins are mocking the poor folk stuck up in the trees they're setting on fire - who knows! Sorry, I used the word 'choreography', in the broadest sense.
Odo
What I meant by choreography, refers to the movement of actors that will acccompany the words being sung. The singing might not even be accompanied by music - just voices - though I don't see why, if the right music was composed, it could not work beautifully. Actual 'dance' might be used when the goblins are mocking the poor folk stuck up in the trees they're setting on fire - who knows! Sorry, I used the word 'choreography', in the broadest sense.
Odo
Alrighty then! Sounds Great to me .
[b:1m17u1cr]GB[/b:1m17u1cr]
.[b:1m17u1cr]GB[/b:1m17u1cr]
[quote="Odo Banks":34byebfe]Should the songs in The Hobbit be removed from the Movie?
I must show my hand!
I love those songs: dwarves threatening to smash crockery; elves "tra la lalling" down in the valley; goblins whip-snapping; and don't forget "Lazy Lob and Crazy Cob"! Oh yes, and all those "little birdies" in those pine trees!
Odo[/quote:34byebfe]
Please, no songs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAY
I must show my hand!
I love those songs: dwarves threatening to smash crockery; elves "tra la lalling" down in the valley; goblins whip-snapping; and don't forget "Lazy Lob and Crazy Cob"! Oh yes, and all those "little birdies" in those pine trees!
Odo[/quote:34byebfe]
Please, no songs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAY
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!
Now that would be fun, a Techno/Rave version of the Hobbit .
[b:n7z8plbm]GB[/b:n7z8plbm]
Now that would be fun, a Techno/Rave version of the Hobbit
.[b:n7z8plbm]GB[/b:n7z8plbm]
Deeply aggrieved! Why can't we have 'sensible' songs?
Odo
Odo
Literally on mothers knee, those songs were just about bearable, i think taken wholesale from the book they'd sound pretty weak, and ruin/change what had been created with the LOTR films.
Well, If DT uses the same Naturalist style of presentation as LotR, I don't see that any lyrics would have to be changed.
[b:2jg0uqqc]GB[/b:2jg0uqqc]
[b:2jg0uqqc]GB[/b:2jg0uqqc]
As happy as I am to have Gandalf's Adventure's included in the Hobbit films, i'm inclined to agree with Odo and Eldorion about keeping the "fun" stuff. As long as it's more Gilliamesque and less Wizard of Oz-ish, I think the right balance of tone can be struck without sacrificing the Mythic elements.
[b:2eavs57d]GB[/b:2eavs57d]
[b:2eavs57d]GB[/b:2eavs57d]
Those hobbit songs were all an intrinsic part of the book for me. Without them, the hobbit won't be the same for me.
What's the next thing? The spiders don't talk? Nor the eagles... sad...sad...sad...
And the next? No Stone Giants? No hounds up on their back feet serving honey cakes at Beorn's house?
Sigh... Those things, I guess, just won't be dark (or adult) enough.
Odo
What's the next thing? The spiders don't talk? Nor the eagles... sad...sad...sad...
And the next? No Stone Giants? No hounds up on their back feet serving honey cakes at Beorn's house?
Sigh... Those things, I guess, just won't be dark (or adult) enough.
Odo
The songs, talking spiders, dog servants, 'cockernee' trolls etc added nothing to the story for me.
I think it's quite a dark tale and i hope that that comes across, rather than all the little bits of the book that, i believe, Tolkien thought was giving the story an immediate appeal to children.
I think it's quite a dark tale and i hope that that comes across, rather than all the little bits of the book that, i believe, Tolkien thought was giving the story an immediate appeal to children.
Trolls, stone giants, goblins, Gollum, wargs, eagles, Beorn mand servants, the spiders, etc. etc. An adventuresome fairy-story with light and dark well balanced, though always with a 'light' touch and nearly always underscored with humor. The 'immediate appeal' to children was the whole point! This 'a dark tale' emphasis is balderdash to me. The text doesn't support the view.
People seem to want either 'a bed time tale' or 'an adult fantasy,' but the book is clearly the first and not the second, however much people pretend it is. Some people (most people???) want a Prequel to LOTR, but I love TH for what it actually is.
Odo
People seem to want either 'a bed time tale' or 'an adult fantasy,' but the book is clearly the first and not the second, however much people pretend it is. Some people (most people???) want a Prequel to LOTR, but I love TH for what it actually is.
Odo
I agree with you Eldorion. We should not have a patchwork of diverse and barely related bits. If they could film TH as closely to the book as possible, and did so competently, we would end up with an absolute Classic Movie. I think TH is very 'visual' in its writing, and the pacing is just right!
I think the right balance can be struck, GB, because the right balance is struck in the book. Myth is not sacrificed there, nor need it be in the movie. (Still can't see eye to eye with you about the White Council though. To make matters worse, this won't be the only tampering either!)
Please please give me a Great Shock Del Toro!!!! Make the Movie true to the book! Songs and all!
Odo
I think the right balance can be struck, GB, because the right balance is struck in the book. Myth is not sacrificed there, nor need it be in the movie. (Still can't see eye to eye with you about the White Council though. To make matters worse, this won't be the only tampering either!)
Please please give me a Great Shock Del Toro!!!! Make the Movie true to the book! Songs and all!
Odo
[quote="Odo Banks":6of6uycr]Some people (most people???) want a Prequel to LOTR, but I love TH for what it actually is.[/quote:6of6uycr]
I absolutely agree! Let's have [i:6of6uycr]The Hobbit[/i:6of6uycr] here - that classic of fantasy; not some jumble pieced together from drafts of Tolkien and prefixed to PJ's films.
I absolutely agree!
Let's have [i:6of6uycr]The Hobbit[/i:6of6uycr] here - that classic of fantasy; not some jumble pieced together from drafts of Tolkien and prefixed to PJ's films.pacing and balance went out of the window as soon as it became 2 movies.
(pauses to rub bank notes over face and body)
(pauses to rub bank notes over face and body)
If there was one movie, it could be done well, but the movie would have to be fairly long to fit everything in. I'm not at all against that idea. Two and a half hours? Three hours? Three and a half? Maybe four? I don't see why not. If the break is at Gandalf's leave taking, I don't see why two movies couldn't work though. I prefer the first option, but there is no way we'll get it, as has already been made manifestly clear. In fact, there is no way we'll get our songs, nor will we miss out on Gandalf's Dark and Gloomy Adventures in Mirkwood. Hey! There will no doubt be one big battle in each movie. Got to have them both, you know. I get knots in the stomach just thinking about what they'll do to this great book...
Odo
Odo
I have had a thought. As the Hobbit is said to be a tale written by Bilbo accounting his travel to and from the lonely mountain. Could it not be said that with out fear of contradiction he would openly embelish such a story, and, as we see in the lord of the rings, perhaps make it more fanciful to appeal to his young relatives, the only people it seems that actually believe his tales.
If this is considered to be the case having looked at the other Tolkien sources it is possible to construe where such embelishments might have taken place. Resulting in the over all view that perhaps there wernt really any bipedal servant dogs. After all the only person who is available to contradict such a tale would be Gandalf who is ofc a very wise man and is unlikely to interfear in the story weaving of a friend.
Just a thought.
As it is I think weaving in songs makes sense so long as they are not a choreographed musical number, rather people singing in such a way as might feasibly happen in an real life situation. At a party with the Elves for instance.
1 other thing. In the Lord of the Rings films we see Legolas having a drinking contest with Gimli and as an elf not actually finding any effect on his person yet in the Hobbit the elves are quite clearly drinking and becoming merry. Could we accredit this to Legolas' parentage, or perhaps we should assume Elves have other forms of intoxicant that happen to have similar effect?
If this is considered to be the case having looked at the other Tolkien sources it is possible to construe where such embelishments might have taken place. Resulting in the over all view that perhaps there wernt really any bipedal servant dogs. After all the only person who is available to contradict such a tale would be Gandalf who is ofc a very wise man and is unlikely to interfear in the story weaving of a friend.
Just a thought.
As it is I think weaving in songs makes sense so long as they are not a choreographed musical number, rather people singing in such a way as might feasibly happen in an real life situation. At a party with the Elves for instance.
1 other thing. In the Lord of the Rings films we see Legolas having a drinking contest with Gimli and as an elf not actually finding any effect on his person yet in the Hobbit the elves are quite clearly drinking and becoming merry. Could we accredit this to Legolas' parentage, or perhaps we should assume Elves have other forms of intoxicant that happen to have similar effect?
I quite agree with many of your points Elledan on principle. The "embellishments" of Bilbo seem quite likely to me. Nonetheless, if done with care some of those elements could still be in the screenplay without being wholly unrealistic.
And I in particular agree with your comment regarding how the songs should be handled.
As to Elves and booze, I think they would have to drink far Stronger Stuff than Mead to get a "buzz" on (Romulan Ale say ). Clearly their constitutions would be far superior to most Mortals. In any case, I wouldn't doubt that the Elves have their own Moonshine Stills brewing up some highly intoxicating beverages.
And I in particular agree with your comment regarding how the songs should be handled.
As to Elves and booze, I think they would have to drink far Stronger Stuff than Mead to get a "buzz" on (Romulan Ale say
). Clearly their constitutions would be far superior to most Mortals. In any case, I wouldn't doubt that the Elves have their own Moonshine Stills brewing up some highly intoxicating beverages.I think it might be a good idea including the songs but only atmospherically, we don't want [i:35gia7nx]Tolkien goes Musical [/i:35gia7nx] , I think if the songs are included in the film they should certainly played to trigger emotion, as done in the return of the king film when Pip sings a song included in the books. I loved the way the song was used to create atmosphere and I think that it will definitely work if there are some more included in the Hobbit films.
Regards
Mr. Took
, I think if the songs are included in the film they should certainly played to trigger emotion, as done in the return of the king film when Pip sings a song included in the books. I loved the way the song was used to create atmosphere and I think that it will definitely work if there are some more included in the Hobbit films.Regards
Mr. Took
The elves in Mirkwood drank wine in TH. Gimli drank some kind of ale, didn't he? Elf-wine might also have stuff in it which is not an ingredient in our wines?
As to the songs, singing doesn't mean dancing. Unless dancing is mentioned it won't be required. I think there was some goblin dancing when the questers were stuck up in those trees - but nowhere else, I think...
if (as an example) the dwarves sing as they tidy up Bilbo's hobbit hole, I'm sure their accompanying moves can be easily choreographed. I'm not suggesting they whistle while they work or that music - other than the rythym of their voices - need be added. Mind you, if done properly,music could be used.
As to Bilbo making his story suitable for children. I have already canvassed the idea (if it was my movie, I'd have Sam telling Bilbo's adventures to his grand kids). If the movie makers want to make it more 'adult', they'll have to seriously rewrite it into said 'adult' story. (Eek!)
Odo
As to the songs, singing doesn't mean dancing. Unless dancing is mentioned it won't be required. I think there was some goblin dancing when the questers were stuck up in those trees - but nowhere else, I think...
if (as an example) the dwarves sing as they tidy up Bilbo's hobbit hole, I'm sure their accompanying moves can be easily choreographed. I'm not suggesting they whistle while they work or that music - other than the rythym of their voices - need be added. Mind you, if done properly,music could be used.
As to Bilbo making his story suitable for children. I have already canvassed the idea (if it was my movie, I'd have Sam telling Bilbo's adventures to his grand kids). If the movie makers want to make it more 'adult', they'll have to seriously rewrite it into said 'adult' story. (Eek!)
Odo
Indeed Odo, I expect "Elf-made wine" was far stronger than what we call wine. As to additives, we can only speculate .
[b:ptcpxdtg]GB[/b:ptcpxdtg]
.[b:ptcpxdtg]GB[/b:ptcpxdtg]
Realism and Atmospherics is the key, just as in the LotR films. I don't really think anyone here wants The Hobbit Musical ala Wizard of Oz. But it would be nice if the songs included contained Tolkien's actual lyrics.
[b:87x4vqh4]GB[/b:87x4vqh4]
[b:87x4vqh4]GB[/b:87x4vqh4]
Yes I agree I don't want to be hearing things like 'We're off to see the dragon, the magnificent dragon called Smaug', and it would be great if the lyrics are Tolkiens with atmospheric melody.
Regards
Mr. Took
Regards
Mr. Took
Hmm, interesting.
Maybe SOME songs from the book should be put into the movie, but if they overdid it, the whole thing might seem like a musical or something. *lol*
Maybe SOME songs from the book should be put into the movie, but if they overdid it, the whole thing might seem like a musical or something. *lol*
[quote="Bullroarer":3twx8dgg]Yes I agree I don't want to be hearing things like 'We're off to see the dragon, the magnificent dragon called Smaug', and it would be great if the lyrics are Tolkiens with atmospheric melody.
Regards
Mr. Took[/quote:3twx8dgg]
funny.
Regards
Mr. Took[/quote:3twx8dgg]
funny.
[quote="Bullroarer":xjnddw9a]we don't want [i:xjnddw9a]Tolkien goes Musical [/i:xjnddw9a] [/quote:xjnddw9a]
I agree totally. Just look at Rankin/Bass' version of The Hobbit.... *shudders* (I did like [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y:xjnddw9a]Where There's a Whip There's a Way[/url:xjnddw9a] in R/B's ROTK though, it was just jarringly out of place.)
[quote:xjnddw9a]I think if the songs are included in the film they should certainly played to trigger emotion, as done in the return of the king film[/quote:xjnddw9a]
I think that's a good way to do it. Emotions could include the feeling of being at home for the Shire, and then the various stages of the Quest (Imladris, the Misty Mountains, Mirkwood, Erebor, etc.).
[/quote:xjnddw9a]I agree totally. Just look at Rankin/Bass' version of The Hobbit.... *shudders* (I did like [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y:xjnddw9a]Where There's a Whip There's a Way[/url:xjnddw9a] in R/B's ROTK though, it was just jarringly out of place.)
[quote:xjnddw9a]I think if the songs are included in the film they should certainly played to trigger emotion, as done in the return of the king film[/quote:xjnddw9a]
I think that's a good way to do it. Emotions could include the feeling of being at home for the Shire, and then the various stages of the Quest (Imladris, the Misty Mountains, Mirkwood, Erebor, etc.).
I'm beginning to think you guys are hardly an adventuresome lot. I find it amazing that people can love The Hobbit, but then not trust that its spirit can can come to life successfully on the big screen.
I can easily imagine the dwarves' gruff voices singing about crashing plates as they tidy up. Or sadly singing 'far over the misty mountains cold' to the serious music of their dwarvish orchestra. I can both be amused and alarmed by the hideous laughing voices of the goblins as they taunt their captives! The elves would be tricky - but who wants timidity? It could be done! The elves in a lighter mood - why not?
As to the mentions of Oz. I think it was a brilliant movie. The songs in it are both funny and far wiser (and adult) than some folk might seem to know. This does not mean The Hobbit should attempt to be some kind of clone. Of course not!!! The only thing I'd borrow from it is the idea that The Hobbit should be directed at a younger audience as 'bedtime' story. Adults love bedtime stories too, you know! Bedtime stories are often shallow on the top and deep on the inside (think of that Wardrobe in TLTWATW). The word 'subtlety' also comes immediately to mind.
I don't believe The Hobbit will work as high drama, not even as an overtly serious story. It works only as straight fairy-story. LOTR was a heroic romance - or modern high fantasy, if you like. The Hobbit is a different kettle of fish.
Hey guys. Remember your inner child. That's the part of you that The Hobbit originally appealed too before you found LOTR and grew up! (Those of you who found The Hobbit later... ahh... I feel sad for you... Truly sad...). Stop being so grown up about this. Go and read The Hobbit again. Allow your imagination to be re-nourished!
If you guys get your way, this movie will be as dull as dishwater...
Odo
I can easily imagine the dwarves' gruff voices singing about crashing plates as they tidy up. Or sadly singing 'far over the misty mountains cold' to the serious music of their dwarvish orchestra. I can both be amused and alarmed by the hideous laughing voices of the goblins as they taunt their captives! The elves would be tricky - but who wants timidity? It could be done! The elves in a lighter mood - why not?
As to the mentions of Oz. I think it was a brilliant movie. The songs in it are both funny and far wiser (and adult) than some folk might seem to know. This does not mean The Hobbit should attempt to be some kind of clone. Of course not!!! The only thing I'd borrow from it is the idea that The Hobbit should be directed at a younger audience as 'bedtime' story. Adults love bedtime stories too, you know! Bedtime stories are often shallow on the top and deep on the inside (think of that Wardrobe in TLTWATW). The word 'subtlety' also comes immediately to mind.
I don't believe The Hobbit will work as high drama, not even as an overtly serious story. It works only as straight fairy-story. LOTR was a heroic romance - or modern high fantasy, if you like. The Hobbit is a different kettle of fish.
Hey guys. Remember your inner child. That's the part of you that The Hobbit originally appealed too before you found LOTR and grew up! (Those of you who found The Hobbit later... ahh... I feel sad for you... Truly sad...). Stop being so grown up about this. Go and read The Hobbit again. Allow your imagination to be re-nourished!
If you guys get your way, this movie will be as dull as dishwater...
Odo
I can see where you're going Odo' and I suppose looking at it from your point of view, we don't want to cage the beast that is Guillermo del Toro. I just don't want it slip away from having any seriousness at all. Btw about the The Wizard of Oz, I think the story is brilliant, I never said otherwise, but the film in which Judy Garland starred in, cannot be classed in the same genre that the future Hobbit films will be in (and not only because of the way it was shot and the time distance between tem hitting the big screen) -this is very obvious as you have said. Although they were both written for children, the books had their differences, the Hobbit being published 40 odd years after The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, they were written by two completely different authors. They could both be bedtime stories of which you have pointed out but they are in no means two stories to be associated with each other. I think that The Hobbit is a different kind of 'bedtime story' in the sense that it [i:s4y5k2lr]does[/i:s4y5k2lr] include some senses of seriousness, the ending has definitely been written to cause the reader to feel emotion, i.e. a large number of the heroes die at the end, for example Thorin dies and Bilbo greaves, the wizard of Oz doesn't address the possibility of situations like these happening and it appeals to children of a slightly younger age because of its naivety. The Hobbit is obviously a children’s book, of which we all know it is (I'm not pretending the Hobbit has some very deep and serious messages concerning life in general ), i.e. a child could read the hobbit without an adult's guidance, but it is definitely a different kind of story to the Wizard of Oz. You pointed out that TLTWATW has a deeper storyline that first meets the eye, I think The Hobbit is similar (i.e. Tolkien and Lewis, are two names associated when people talk about book genre -obviously not just for this one reason ) , but the same can't be said for tWoO.
I do however agree with you that some singing, (used before many times in the LotR film trilogy i.e. Viggo Mortensen, Billy Boyd and so on actually sing) in the film is a very good idea, but only to create atmosphere, not to 'bring life to the dialogue'. I do agree with you also that the atmosphere in The Hobbit is slightly lighter than in the LotR but I then don't think it can be dissociated with having any seriousness (although I'm not suggesting you feel the Battle of Five Armies is something the characters can feel happy about obviously ).
I think the Hobbit will and needs to be different to the LotR trilogy but the new films should not loose their continuity with it. There is one very obvious similarity I have noticed though about The Hobbit and the Wizard of Oz, although I’m sure I prefer the one with the big grey beard! Btw Odo I don’t want us to fall out over the wizard of oz, I’m sorry to have contradicted you again, we obviously both feel strongly about Tolkien and his works, it’s just a shame you don't agree with my theory of having a boring Hobbit movie!
Btw Eldorian I agree with you that the Rankin/Bass' version spoilt Tolkien’s beautifully constructed songs, by singing them along to naff, clumsy' sounding tunes.
Regards
Mr. Took
), i.e. a child could read the hobbit without an adult's guidance, but it is definitely a different kind of story to the Wizard of Oz. You pointed out that TLTWATW has a deeper storyline that first meets the eye, I think The Hobbit is similar (i.e. Tolkien and Lewis, are two names associated when people talk about book genre -obviously not just for this one reason ) , but the same can't be said for tWoO. I do however agree with you that some singing, (used before many times in the LotR film trilogy i.e. Viggo Mortensen, Billy Boyd and so on actually sing) in the film is a very good idea, but only to create atmosphere, not to 'bring life to the dialogue'. I do agree with you also that the atmosphere in The Hobbit is slightly lighter than in the LotR but I then don't think it can be dissociated with having any seriousness (although I'm not suggesting you feel the Battle of Five Armies is something the characters can feel happy about obviously
). I think the Hobbit will and needs to be different to the LotR trilogy but the new films should not loose their continuity with it. There is one very obvious similarity I have noticed though about The Hobbit and the Wizard of Oz, although I’m sure I prefer the one with the big grey beard! Btw Odo I don’t want us to fall out over the wizard of oz, I’m sorry to have contradicted you again, we obviously both feel strongly about Tolkien and his works, it’s just a shame you don't agree with my theory of having a boring Hobbit movie
!Btw Eldorian I agree with you that the Rankin/Bass' version spoilt Tolkien’s beautifully constructed songs, by singing them along to naff, clumsy' sounding tunes.
Regards
Mr. Took
[quote="Odo Banks":4yv713pg]I find it amazing that people can love The Hobbit, but then not trust that its spirit can can come to life successfully on the big screen.[/quote:4yv713pg]
I don't find it hard to worry that the "spirit" (whatever you want that to mean) can't be brought to the screen. Were the film being made my Tolkien himself there wouldn't really be cause to worry, but it's being made by someone who never met Tolkien (to my knowledge) and who is working with a group that has already established its familiarity with making changes to the source material.
[quote:4yv713pg]I don't believe The Hobbit will work as high drama, not even as an overtly serious story. It works only as straight fairy-story. LOTR was a heroic romance - or modern high fantasy, if you like. The Hobbit is a different kettle of fish.[/quote:4yv713pg]
Don't get me wrong Odo, I agree with you; which is why I'm discouraged by talk of integrating The Hobbit with the LOTR to make them fit together. I just don't want The Hobbit to be a musical with [i:4yv713pg]too many[/i:4yv713pg] songs (but I recognize this is extremely subjective).
I don't find it hard to worry that the "spirit" (whatever you want that to mean) can't be brought to the screen. Were the film being made my Tolkien himself there wouldn't really be cause to worry, but it's being made by someone who never met Tolkien (to my knowledge) and who is working with a group that has already established its familiarity with making changes to the source material.
[quote:4yv713pg]I don't believe The Hobbit will work as high drama, not even as an overtly serious story. It works only as straight fairy-story. LOTR was a heroic romance - or modern high fantasy, if you like. The Hobbit is a different kettle of fish.[/quote:4yv713pg]
Don't get me wrong Odo, I agree with you; which is why I'm discouraged by talk of integrating The Hobbit with the LOTR to make them fit together. I just don't want The Hobbit to be a musical with [i:4yv713pg]too many[/i:4yv713pg] songs (but I recognize this is extremely subjective).
I would like to see a small degree of continuety throughout the LotR films and the Hobbit films, because in some ways I want to feel the sense of thrill I felt whilst watching the LotR triliog again, the atmosphere that the films gave off make me want to watch another installment of it. I don't really want to see a completely different film, of which I don't recognise the Peter Jackson contribution.
[b:2k8derpm]Bandobras[/b:2k8derpm]
[b:2k8derpm]Bandobras[/b:2k8derpm]
The Wizard of Oz and The Hobbit are very different. They are both fairy-stories but only in that way are they of a kind, the parallels can't be drawn too tightly, and I never would.
What I'm saying is that The Hobbit can be filmed as a story for all the family and in this the songs would fit fine. It would be a film with songs in it but not a musical in any true sense. The Hobbit book was never meant to be the template for a musical. It is a story with songs in it. If anyone tried to make TH into TWOOZ it would be a disaster. I never suggested it should be!
Please read my previous posts and understand what I meant. A close reading would reveal what my clear points were. Oh Bullroarer, I'm afraid you did not clearly see what I was getting at. No dramas though, conversations slither and slide and misunderstandings abound (that's half the fun!) As to you offending me - you never have.
As to any continuity betwen LOTR and TH, I don't reject the movies having it, for there is continuity between the two books. But remember also that the books are very different to each other and that we fans have always lived with the marked differences. In fact, some of us positively delight in the difference. I know I do. These are two different tales from the one Middle-earth. Different perspective. Different spirit. Should be different movies (but with some natural continuity!!!!)
Eldorion, there aren't that many songs. Over two films the number of Tolkien's songs would seem few indeed. And we're not talking about big musical numbers either, we're talking about thirty second snippets. Sing the songs to yourself - you'll see they won't take much time. Unless the movie makers were foolish enough to overblow them, they won't be all that intrusive, just a joy to behold.
I should not keep on about this, for just thinking about what Del Toro will do makes my anxiety levels rise. I truly fear that the 'real' Hobbit will never reach the screen! Oh Eldorion! Perhaps you and I will be wearing black the day the first film is released.
Odo
What I'm saying is that The Hobbit can be filmed as a story for all the family and in this the songs would fit fine. It would be a film with songs in it but not a musical in any true sense. The Hobbit book was never meant to be the template for a musical. It is a story with songs in it. If anyone tried to make TH into TWOOZ it would be a disaster. I never suggested it should be!
Please read my previous posts and understand what I meant. A close reading would reveal what my clear points were. Oh Bullroarer, I'm afraid you did not clearly see what I was getting at. No dramas though, conversations slither and slide and misunderstandings abound (that's half the fun!) As to you offending me - you never have.
As to any continuity betwen LOTR and TH, I don't reject the movies having it, for there is continuity between the two books. But remember also that the books are very different to each other and that we fans have always lived with the marked differences. In fact, some of us positively delight in the difference. I know I do. These are two different tales from the one Middle-earth. Different perspective. Different spirit. Should be different movies (but with some natural continuity!!!!)
Eldorion, there aren't that many songs. Over two films the number of Tolkien's songs would seem few indeed. And we're not talking about big musical numbers either, we're talking about thirty second snippets. Sing the songs to yourself - you'll see they won't take much time. Unless the movie makers were foolish enough to overblow them, they won't be all that intrusive, just a joy to behold.
I should not keep on about this, for just thinking about what Del Toro will do makes my anxiety levels rise. I truly fear that the 'real' Hobbit will never reach the screen! Oh Eldorion! Perhaps you and I will be wearing black the day the first film is released.
Odo
[quote:mcniv6vm][b:mcniv6vm]Odo:[/b:mcniv6vm]
Eldorion, there aren't that many songs. Over two films the number of Tolkien's songs would seem few indeed. And we're not talking about big musical numbers either, we're talking about thirty second snippets. Sing the songs to yourself - you'll see they won't take much time. Unless the movie makers were foolish enough to overblow them, they won't be all that intrusive, just a joy to behold.
[/quote:mcniv6vm]
This is precisely why I agree with you wholeheartedly about the inclusion of the songs Odo. I also happen to agree that the "spirit" or "tone" of the book is different from LotR, and I would like to see as much as possible of that "spirit" captured on film. However, I am not averse to a blending of tones and a deepening. darkening, and maturing of sorts as the film carries on.
I feel that too would be true to the book. I've always thought the tone of the Hobbit altered significantly after the Death of Smaug, and reflected a kind of "growing up" if you will. The fleshing out of Gandalf and The White Council's story, interspersed throughout The Hobbit films, will prove trickier to balance with the tone/spirit of The Hobbit.
But having seen Del Toro's Hellboy films (not to mention Pan's Labyrinth, though that tale is far too dark for a proper comparison), I am confident in Del Toro's ability to handle the material and provide the right balance. He has a similar sensibility to Terry Gilliam, who is the only other director that I think could achieve that balance wholly successfully. Chris Columbus achieved something similar in the first two Potter films, but only by copying Gilliam, and less succesfully.
As to distinctions between "high" fantasy and "low" fantasy, I have always thought that those distinctions were so arbitrary as to be rendered meaningless. To continue using the example that we are beating to Death, Oz is considered by many to be purely "low" fantasy, a children's tale with no depth of character or meaning, no sense of grandeur or "epic' scale.
If one judged based entirely on the film version, I could quite see the point. But the Oz book(s) are a far different "kettle of fish" as you say Odo. The first and last book in Baum's Oz series (it was continued by others after his death), have a lot of darkness and depth of soul not so prevalent in the intervening books. I have always thought Oz has been unfairly mis-characterized as Deus Ex Machina factories for kiddies, in much the same way that some mis-characterized the Narnia books.
[b:mcniv6vm]GB[/b:mcniv6vm]
Eldorion, there aren't that many songs. Over two films the number of Tolkien's songs would seem few indeed. And we're not talking about big musical numbers either, we're talking about thirty second snippets. Sing the songs to yourself - you'll see they won't take much time. Unless the movie makers were foolish enough to overblow them, they won't be all that intrusive, just a joy to behold.
[/quote:mcniv6vm]
This is precisely why I agree with you wholeheartedly about the inclusion of the songs Odo. I also happen to agree that the "spirit" or "tone" of the book is different from LotR, and I would like to see as much as possible of that "spirit" captured on film. However, I am not averse to a blending of tones and a deepening. darkening, and maturing of sorts as the film carries on.
I feel that too would be true to the book. I've always thought the tone of the Hobbit altered significantly after the Death of Smaug, and reflected a kind of "growing up" if you will. The fleshing out of Gandalf and The White Council's story, interspersed throughout The Hobbit films, will prove trickier to balance with the tone/spirit of The Hobbit.
But having seen Del Toro's Hellboy films (not to mention Pan's Labyrinth, though that tale is far too dark for a proper comparison), I am confident in Del Toro's ability to handle the material and provide the right balance. He has a similar sensibility to Terry Gilliam, who is the only other director that I think could achieve that balance wholly successfully. Chris Columbus achieved something similar in the first two Potter films, but only by copying Gilliam, and less succesfully.
As to distinctions between "high" fantasy and "low" fantasy, I have always thought that those distinctions were so arbitrary as to be rendered meaningless. To continue using the example that we are beating to Death, Oz is considered by many to be purely "low" fantasy, a children's tale with no depth of character or meaning, no sense of grandeur or "epic' scale.
If one judged based entirely on the film version, I could quite see the point. But the Oz book(s) are a far different "kettle of fish" as you say Odo. The first and last book in Baum's Oz series (it was continued by others after his death), have a lot of darkness and depth of soul not so prevalent in the intervening books. I have always thought Oz has been unfairly mis-characterized as Deus Ex Machina factories for kiddies, in much the same way that some mis-characterized the Narnia books.
[b:mcniv6vm]GB[/b:mcniv6vm]
I could already see the point you were making about tH having a different kind of atmosphere to the LotR Odo', but I don't think you can say you weren't suggesting the books and the films had more connection than they actually do. [i:2js7kxxb]You [/i:2js7kxxb]have also misinterpreted [i:2js7kxxb]me[/i:2js7kxxb], you were suggesting I thought having a [i:2js7kxxb]musical[/i:2js7kxxb] tH was actually possible, I was merely joking with you. Of course I know the Hobbit would be a disaster if it went musical, I was never actually said you wanted it that way! I was trying to explain that I think the songs are a nice addition they embellish the film but they are not that important, and shouldn't be used as an alternative to speaking normal dialogue (of which I know you agree with me here), held to closely to the plot or used for a bit of fun for the kiddies’. I think the songs should only be used for atmospheric purposes and at milestone points in the film (I have said this many times before) as opposed to being actively used by the majority of character's (of which have been chosen for [i:2js7kxxb]acting skills[/i:2js7kxxb] not because they have beautiful singing voices). I certainly never said that you wanted the films to be a clone the Wizard of Oz, I just think your making too much of an association, Wizard of Oz book and film are both much more 'family' than The Hobbit will ever be! 
The Hobbit is not naive you have pointed this out, you also say that the film is very pro-family, but that does not mean that the film should be dummed down into a sequence of nicey-nicey happy-happy songs for kids! The film should a family-film but I don’t think cheesy songs are the best way to include kids in the watching of the film and have the story still appeal to everybody, you've pointed out it's not an [i:2js7kxxb][b:2js7kxxb]incredibly[/b:2js7kxxb][/i:2js7kxxb] epic story but it is also not a story that should lose the LotR seriousness and continuity. You also say it shouldn't lose obvious natural continuity, I never suggested for a moment that you'd completely change tH into a Wizard of Oz Tokien style reproduction but the changes you [i:2js7kxxb]do[/i:2js7kxxb] suggest make it uncomfortably different from how I see tH film developing, I don't mean to dismiss your opinion though either by the way, we all have different opinions.
I think now all this conversation about the Wizard of Oz is getting a bit stupid and you might think it's my fault but maybe we should all accept everyones different opinions and maybe Odo shouldn't patronise me by suggesting I have misinterpretted him
! There we have reached a conclusion, end of story and on with [i:2js7kxxb]happy[/i:2js7kxxb] posting.
[b:2js7kxxb]Bandobras[/b:2js7kxxb]
The Hobbit is not naive you have pointed this out, you also say that the film is very pro-family, but that does not mean that the film should be dummed down into a sequence of nicey-nicey happy-happy songs for kids! The film should a family-film but I don’t think cheesy songs are the best way to include kids in the watching of the film and have the story still appeal to everybody, you've pointed out it's not an [i:2js7kxxb][b:2js7kxxb]incredibly[/b:2js7kxxb][/i:2js7kxxb] epic story but it is also not a story that should lose the LotR seriousness and continuity. You also say it shouldn't lose obvious natural continuity, I never suggested for a moment that you'd completely change tH into a Wizard of Oz Tokien style reproduction but the changes you [i:2js7kxxb]do[/i:2js7kxxb] suggest make it uncomfortably different from how I see tH film developing, I don't mean to dismiss your opinion though either by the way, we all have different opinions.I think now all this conversation about the Wizard of Oz is getting a bit stupid and you might think it's my fault but maybe we should all accept everyones different opinions and maybe Odo shouldn't patronise me by suggesting I have misinterpretted him
! There we have reached a conclusion, end of story and on with [i:2js7kxxb]happy[/i:2js7kxxb] posting. [b:2js7kxxb]Bandobras[/b:2js7kxxb]
[quote="Odo Banks":2viuh7cm]Eldorion, there aren't that many songs. Over two films the number of Tolkien's songs would seem few indeed. And we're not talking about big musical numbers either, we're talking about thirty second snippets. Sing the songs to yourself - you'll see they won't take much time. Unless the movie makers were foolish enough to overblow them, they won't be all that intrusive, just a joy to behold.[/quote:2viuh7cm]
I agree with you. However, the filmmakers who made the animated version of The Hobbit back in the '70s WERE foolish enough to make it - essentially - a musical. That's all I was really saying: I don't want that. I think we agree about this.
I agree with you. However, the filmmakers who made the animated version of The Hobbit back in the '70s WERE foolish enough to make it - essentially - a musical. That's all I was really saying: I don't want that. I think we agree about this.
Yes, I think we can all agree we don't want High School Hobbit: The Musical .
[b:haonsftg]GB[/b:haonsftg]
.[b:haonsftg]GB[/b:haonsftg]
Oh who is patronising who (though I appreciate your patronage! ) I love it when folk get nititty-pickety about our ideas. I don't mind hearing contrary ones. You see, I know I'm always right - even when I later discover I'm wrong! Maybe its my feminine side coming out.
I still stick by the statement that I was misunderstood, Bullroarer. You set off to labor the point about Wizard and TH being not alike. I never suggested they were. You gave an interesting outline of your thoughts on the Wiz - they just did not relate very much to what I was getting at. That's not me patronising anyone, that's just clear thinking.
But now that the Wiz has come to the forefront of our thoughts, I must say I'm troubled by these assaults on its integrity. It is a wonderful movie and has its subtleties. Folk seem to think it's a kidde flick and write it off narrowly as such. But it's much more than just a kiddie flick. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will know this.
Now, as to puting the songs in TH, all I say is they could be put in the movie, exactly where and how they are put in the book. They are an integral part of the reading experience and thereby important to the story - as simple as that. Without them, the tone of the tale will be seriously diminished. Readers up to now have not complained about them, not at least until the idea of a film came up - and so now they're not good?. What's wrong with people? If you don't want the hobbit to be the hobbit, you obviously don't really care for the book. Go find another book that suits your kind of movie making. Leave TH to the genuine fans. There's plenty enough of them to watch a respectful adaptation of the book. Del Toro will still make a packet!
The Hobbit is not a treatise on philosophy btw - it's a fairy-story (with songs!) Yes, fairy-stories have depths - but as I said, TH is not a treatise. You sometimes make TH sound allergorical.
When did I say TH was "not" an incredibly epic story? And I didn't say it "was" an incredibly epic story either! You refer to a point I made which I didn't make. Edward Lear lives! (This is the trouble with some folk - they get carried away by their imaginations! Not that is usually a bad thing! )
Odo
Odo
) I love it when folk get nititty-pickety about our ideas. I don't mind hearing contrary ones. You see, I know I'm always right - even when I later discover I'm wrong! Maybe its my feminine side coming out. I still stick by the statement that I was misunderstood, Bullroarer. You set off to labor the point about Wizard and TH being not alike. I never suggested they were. You gave an interesting outline of your thoughts on the Wiz - they just did not relate very much to what I was getting at. That's not me patronising anyone, that's just clear thinking.
But now that the Wiz has come to the forefront of our thoughts, I must say I'm troubled by these assaults on its integrity. It is a wonderful movie and has its subtleties. Folk seem to think it's a kidde flick and write it off narrowly as such. But it's much more than just a kiddie flick. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will know this.
Now, as to puting the songs in TH, all I say is they could be put in the movie, exactly where and how they are put in the book. They are an integral part of the reading experience and thereby important to the story - as simple as that. Without them, the tone of the tale will be seriously diminished. Readers up to now have not complained about them, not at least until the idea of a film came up - and so now they're not good?. What's wrong with people? If you don't want the hobbit to be the hobbit, you obviously don't really care for the book. Go find another book that suits your kind of movie making. Leave TH to the genuine fans. There's plenty enough of them to watch a respectful adaptation of the book. Del Toro will still make a packet!
The Hobbit is not a treatise on philosophy btw - it's a fairy-story (with songs!) Yes, fairy-stories have depths - but as I said, TH is not a treatise. You sometimes make TH sound allergorical.
When did I say TH was "not" an incredibly epic story? And I didn't say it "was" an incredibly epic story either! You refer to a point I made which I didn't make. Edward Lear lives! (This is the trouble with some folk - they get carried away by their imaginations! Not that is usually a bad thing!
)Odo
Odo
Oh I do hope they keep the songs, they are cool, granted when I was reading the book for the first time I thought it odd they would have songs in the middle of chapater(I thought they were only created for to the cartoon version) However I thought it was a great Idea and I would love to have them in the Movie as well
and I know it's kind of silly to say but I grew up with the Hobbit Cartoon ( yes I had seen the cartoon before I read the book)
and those tunes to me are just part of The Hobbit and should be kept, it wouldn't be the same if they Dropped the songs from the movie.
My favorite is/was
"The Funny Little things" tune ...15 birds in five fir trees..."
I could sing it all day long lol.
and I know it's kind of silly to say but I grew up with the Hobbit Cartoon ( yes I had seen the cartoon before I read the book)
and those tunes to me are just part of The Hobbit and should be kept, it wouldn't be the same if they Dropped the songs from the movie.
My favorite is/was
"The Funny Little things" tune ...15 birds in five fir trees..."
I could sing it all day long lol.
Hi
I just skimmed this thread, and wanted to clear up an argument that happened a couple of pages back (the elves and wine discussion):
it is mentioned by Tolken in the chapter barrels out of bound that elves intoxicate slower than other races (explains the drinking competition in LOTR), and it has to be an extremely strong beverage to have an effect. Now the wine drunken by the elves was for the kings high table, a heavy beverage far stronger than anything else, to be drunk in small cups. The butler and elf guard drank the wine sparingly, and were out cold in a number of seconds.
I just skimmed this thread, and wanted to clear up an argument that happened a couple of pages back (the elves and wine discussion):
it is mentioned by Tolken in the chapter barrels out of bound that elves intoxicate slower than other races (explains the drinking competition in LOTR), and it has to be an extremely strong beverage to have an effect. Now the wine drunken by the elves was for the kings high table, a heavy beverage far stronger than anything else, to be drunk in small cups. The butler and elf guard drank the wine sparingly, and were out cold in a number of seconds.
[quote="Aule":1y7gy6kr]it is mentioned by Tolken in the chapter barrels out of bound that elves intoxicate slower than other races (explains the drinking competition in LOTR), and it has to be an extremely strong beverage to have an effect. Now the wine drunken by the elves was for the kings high table, a heavy beverage far stronger than anything else, to be drunk in small cups. The butler and elf guard drank the wine sparingly, and were out cold in a number of seconds.[/quote:1y7gy6kr]
Tolkien doesn't say that explicitly, but it is implied by the line "It must be potent wine to make a wood-elf drowsy" that elves have somewhat of a higher tolerance for alcohol than humans do. I don't think that they passed out in just a few seconds. The text states that the chief guard was out "[v]ery soon" though the butler lasted "for a while" longer.
Tolkien doesn't say that explicitly, but it is implied by the line "It must be potent wine to make a wood-elf drowsy" that elves have somewhat of a higher tolerance for alcohol than humans do. I don't think that they passed out in just a few seconds. The text states that the chief guard was out "[v]ery soon" though the butler lasted "for a while" longer.
In any case, Aule confirms my point .
[b:25s1s3xg]GB[/b:25s1s3xg]
.[b:25s1s3xg]GB[/b:25s1s3xg]
