Thinking thinking thinking...

Gandalf going off in The Hobbit was really just an excuse to give Bilbo the oportunity to 'grow' as a character (and hero, even). Gandalf went off to chase the Necromancer away from Dol Guldur (I'm not even sure it was to chase Sauron away to Mordor at that stage of writing). This is an excellent reason why it should not be part of the movie - it was never, strictly speaking, part of the book.

Bilbo is the Story. The only diversion should be the slaying of Smaug, as this was IN THE BOOK. And should be shown after the Party have had time to begin to wonder about things - perhaps in Flashback. All that wandering around inside the Lonely Mountain with them wondering where Smaug had got to was truly suspenseful. Let this play out - and then do the Flashback.

Hey, how's this: don't fix it if it's not broke!

Odo

Thanks Eldorion.

Odo

No problem, Odo.

[quote="Odo Banks":1viljb5u]This is an excellent reason why it should not be part of the movie - it was never, strictly speaking, part of the book.

...

Hey, how's this: don't fix it if it's not broke![/quote:1viljb5u]

I agree. I don't think showing Gandalf's "comings and goings" would be necessary beyond make a few-second flashback at some point when he hints at where he was (sort of like they did in [i:1viljb5u]The Two Towers[/i:1viljb5u]).

Not for me, alas .

But then I am one of those kids who always wanted to know what Gandalf was doing in The Hobbit anyway.

[b:2jnkt418]GB[/b:2jnkt418]

Nice One Odo . Touche.

However, I love Hollywood Special Effects Blockbusters. And as Jackson mirrored a lot of what was in my own subconscious, I feel pretty good about how this is going to turn out.

[b:3uawbncg]GB[/b:3uawbncg]

[quote="Odo Banks":2vgopc30]That same force was strong enough to seduce one such as Eldorion away from the True Path.[/quote:2vgopc30]

Is this because of the Bombadil thing?

Again... . I'm rendered speechless with Mirth.

[b:qe96sqnn]GB[/b:qe96sqnn]

no, he who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Thank you, Odo, why the long face?

that's not a photo............it's an etching surely.
Now reply to my new dragon-y post in an informed yet light hearted way, post haste.

I don't know, but I'm beginning to smell a rat I think. All this talk of Aragorn possibly being in the movie. Gimli definitely not being in the movie. Whether Legolas will or won't...

Let's put things out logically.

Gimli could slide into the movie as Gloin (find a different glue, or digitally change his face a bit - hey - big budget!). Gloin does not take such a big role. A lot of his shots would be of him as one among thirteen. Use a stunt double and digitally stick on his face if non-speaking? Dead easy - if you know how.

Legolas, legitimately could be in movie - though as a cameo, very few lines, just to please the fans. Orlando could play Thranduil even, with minor make-up changes. He's Immortal. He does not age!

Anyhow - to the Bigger Picture!

To put in Aragorn and the White Council would require so much sub-creating and movie time, we'd definitely need three movies, or else the whole thing would be too rushed! The movie makers can't risk anything but a movie of the quality and 'pacing' of LOTR. Tonal changes between Bilbo and the White Council sequences would be too extreme - unless they're making The Hobbit (Adults Only) Version. (If so, they'll have to cut out all the lighter scenes - and that will leave nothing left but DT's imagination!)

I don't think DT can do it. The Hobbit will be The Hobbit. The movie makers are playing with us with all this talk of showing events in Southern Mirkwood - because they know it can't be done even half-well in the space of two movies!

The White Council will come in "Gandalf the Grey (The Movie)," just as I've always suspected! "Money, money, money, isn't funny, it's a rich man's world...!" (Abba)

Yippee-yay! No White Council!!!


Odo

I feel we are close to entering "Groundhog Day", with this debate, Dear Beard. You know, you can be quite stubborn when I'm right!

I never knew Time Bandit's was basically The Hobbit!!!

I didn't pick that at all.

I don't know for sure, but perhaps (just perhaps) your ideas on 'adaptations' are even more novel than I realized! Phew!

I won't tell Eldorion you said it. He'll probably have a fit!

Odo

I can actually see your point. It sounded pretty outrageous though!

Odo

Why am I always trying to catch up with you guys (8 pages later)?

I have to go to a quote from Peter Jackson, which in paraphrase is "the fans will eventually forgive us for changes to storyline and even to character, so long as we stay true to middle earth. Assuming we keep that intact, the fans will say 'well, he royally screwed that movie up, but at least middle earth is still there so we can always go back again and do it right.'"

I like GB's idea of keeping the most Hobbitish parts together in the first movie, then letting us wander a bit during the darker second movie and see things we might have otherwise missed. It's still middle earth.

And though I remain royally pissed at PJ for the parts he screwed up, I thank him for the wonderful visit to a place I love. So long as orcs/goblins don't stop and take a vote at forks in the road instead of fighting about it, and the Misty Mountains don't look like the rolling Appalachians; so long as elves still sing in the trees, I'll be glad it got made. I burned out my rigid book faithfulness in a series of hissy fits after each LoTR movie and don't plan to let myself get worked up in a huff this time. I think Del Toro will get the world right despite any other sins he may commit.

Sorry to upset you further Odo, and for the record I don't like what I'm about to speculate either but I suspect it will come to pass, after a reread of the Quest for Erebor I suspect I can see how they are going to do this (and given the previous use of extra material in LoTR), I reckon the story of TH and the addition of the WC (that's not a good abbreviation!) will run consecutively, intercutting between the two. Why? Because there's is a line in UT where Gandalf implies removing the Necromancer happened in the nick of time for Thorin and co. From this I can see them dramatically heightening this one line so that the outcome of events in Erebor hinge entirely upon the success of the White Council. Its cheap drama and LoTR the films proved, if nothing else, PJ and co are masters of cheap drama.

All the true heros of the world are the dreamers - even if it's the hard nosed realists who actually build the impossible bridge, someone had to say "nothing is impossible if you want it enough".

My cap off to you, Odo and friends; you are doomed to defeat but it will be the stuff that songs are made of. The movie will at least echo parts of your dream, as a voice heard far off.

I too dreamed of Lord of the Rings done with every word and every scene in place, but it will be some bohemian art project with little profit yet much nobility. The same could be done of the hobbit. If the current big venture comes out 75% intact it will be the best we can hope for. In which case we may as well have the white council. Alas, it is but a grown up solution arrived at by committee rather than youthful dreamers.

"We lived many lives in those whirling campaigns, never sparing ourselves: yet when we achieved and the new world dawned, the old men came out again and took our victory to remake in the likeness of the former world they once knew. Youth had won, but had not learned to keep, and was pitiably weak against age. We stammered that we had worked for a new heaven and new earth, and they thanked us kindly and made their peace.

"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their mind wake in the day to find that it was but vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."

Lawrence of Arabia
Seven Pillars of Wisdom

[quote="Odo Banks":ki59cppq]I'm not an Art House man generally. I'm not seeking a small audience. I'm seeking an audience of folk who love The Hobbit.[/quote:ki59cppq]

I agree absolutely. The Hobbit has been a bestselling classic for over 70 years and has a huge fanbase (including some who dislike LotR). Add to that the fact that it will bring in many fans of the LotR [i:ki59cppq]movies[/i:ki59cppq] as well, it's pretty much a guaranteed hit. It doesn't "need" to do anything (except not be a steaming turd, but I think it's a given it won't).

If only we had a Galadriel to flatten the walls with some kick-ass elf-fu! Or magic ... magic's cool too.

Of course she'd be on our side! Just look at this fragment found in Tolkien's old laundry hamper, apparently written in response to a now-lost letter proposing to "expand" The Hobbit to make it more like TLotR. Tragically, it was lost amidst the good Professor's dirty underwear for several decades and has only now been found, in a second-hand clothing store....

------------
'Your movie-making is known to us,' said Galadriel, looking at Bilbo. 'But it has no place here. Yet not in vain will it prove, maybe, should you leave this land and not seek aid here, as Gandalf himself plainly purposed. For though the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings, he would not let you stray so far from your purpose. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat against those who would corrupt the very stories they claim to adapt.

'I it was who first summoned the White Council. And if my designs had not gone amiss, it would have been a record in history, and not told in any tale of Latter Days, and then mayhap we should see our stories adapted faithfully. But even now there is hope left. I will not act in this movie, my character where she should not be, or saying things she never said. For not in changing or adding, nor in mixing this line and that scene, can I avail; but only in staying true to the book at the heart of this all. But this I will say to you: your Movie stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruins of all. Yet hope remains while all the Film-makers are true.'

I've been going to second-hand/consignment shops for a long time, this one just happened to have a real treasure amongst the ... other stuff.

Okay you two. I'm still licking my wounds from being called an electrician, but I'll recover.

Here's what I think everyone can agree on:
1. The Hobbit doesn't [i:2b06bylm]need[/i:2b06bylm] the white council. It's eminently complete and filmable as it is.
2. The white council would detract from the flow of the story.

But we also have to accept that if you give film-makers an entire world to play in and the funding to do so, they're gonna play. And it would be cool to see the white council, so long as the damage to the story and Tolkien's larger legacy can be minimized.

So here's what I suggest: the WC can be used as the opening segment to the second movie, sort of like Gandalf fighting the balrog scene. It would give the viewers a re-introduction to the world with a glimpse of what's going on behind the scenes, without really interrupting the flow of the story which was already interrupted by a bunch of damn credits and perhaps a year's wait anyway.

This way the purists could hit the skip button on their DVD remote right up front and get back to the pure Hobbit with little more than an oath under the breath.

So why film the white council if it doesn't really go in the story? Because it's an important part of middle earth history, and it fits in the chronology. To pass it up is too hard to resist - there will never be another chance to get it on film. I say bag the sucker but structure it so it doesn't interfere.

I agree that the White Council shouldn't be in there at all. It's simply not part of the story of The Hobbit (though part of the backstory). While it's an important part of the history and the backstory, it's still not really relevant. A film has to tell a story, not just jump around from place to place in the world. (On a slightly unrelated note, I think that would have been the biggest problem with the "bridge movie" idea, and is why I'm glad they scrapped it. Now if only they could have given up on the White Council too....) I think a stronger case could be made for it being lumped in with LotR, if not for it coinciding chronologically.

[quote:1j0n4btc]so long as the damage to the story and Tolkien's larger legacy can be minimized.[/quote:1j0n4btc]

I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to by "Tolkien's larger legacy", but I don't think that including the White Council is going to work out at all, from the perspective of making a faithful/accurate adaptation. It will shift a large part of the focus and emotional energy away from the "real" story of The Hobbit, and makes it more of "The Prequel to LotR" than its own story. Based on the filmmakers' comments, that seems to be their goal anyway. Apparently adapting one of the great classics of fantasy literature just isn't good enough on its own for the likes of PJ and GdT.

While it would be nice for it be unintrusive, I'm not sure how well slipping it into the first few minutes of film two would work. The Gandalf/Balrog scene was only a few minutes long, so it fit; but the White Council is going to take quite a bit longer. It might be possible to show as long as a 15-20 minute sequence, but sooner or later you've got to get back to the main story. My position on this is that if they're going to add the White Council, I'd like them to do it justice.

Whatever my own preference is though, I think that petty is probably right as to what ultimately will happen.

My sentiment is similar to Halfwise's, though I am personally much more excited to have Gandalf's Adventures with the White Council and Dol Guldur included. As Halfwise indicated, my preference has always been to have that be in the second film with the battle of 5 armies.

But it has been indicated by Del Toro himself that it will be included in both films concurrent with the main story. I think of all people other than Terry Gilliam, Del Toro will be able to handle these shifts in tone. So I am not overly concerned about any "ruination" .

[b:2ufq7qvb]GB[/b:2ufq7qvb]

Keep Singing Odo!

GB - I'd be thrilled to see a full blown white council and attack on Dol Guldor on screen, but I strongly sympathize with those who don't want their childhood memories mucked around with. It's kinda like watching a beautifully done Winnie the Pooh, and then all of a sudden you are assaulted with Christopher Robin sitting behind his little desk in 1st grade, drinking milk out of a little cardboard carton. I mean, we know he went away to school, but do we really want to see it?

I would like to see the WC etc, 'cause it's much cooler than watching Christorpher Robin drink milk, but it's a delicate thing. I think your solution comes closest to making it work (my James Bond type of opening scene being universally booed out). We'll see what they do.

But my picture of Smaug is still the best. (other thread)

I'm still waiting on someone to make LoTR! Got little hope for TH.