I was bored and looking through some maps.
Like This One
I Understand why Frodo, Elrond, Bilbo and that lot take a boat, but if a Team of Strong People went to the north of Middle Earth, through the Blue Mountains and Gondolin, Couldn't they just stroll in by Helcaraxe? Or if Sauron and his army wun the war of the ring because all the Elves did a runner, could they then go and take over the Undying Lands by the same route I just Described?
Or they could also go east at the Forests of Harad, and sail a boat from there. How come this never happens? ([A,5] and [M,5] on the Map)
Thread: Travelling to the Undying Land
Planet Tolkien is archived and no longer updated, but the forums remain browseable. We have established a Telegram group for old and new visitors to stay connected and discuss all things Tolkien.
Hmm, crossing the Grinding Ice was no easy task in any case. It was said that: 'Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or woe.'
Of The Flight Of The Noldor, Silmarillion
Of The Flight Of The Noldor, Silmarillion
But if the strongest people managed to cross, would they be blocked by Elronds Guards coz they weren't elves?
Do you mean in the Third Age? If so, the Undying Lands had been removed from the Circles of the World.
But you mentioned Gondolin too (in Frodo's day Beleriand was under the Sea for the most part), so I'm a bit confused.
But you mentioned Gondolin too (in Frodo's day Beleriand was under the Sea for the most part), so I'm a bit confused.
And so am I (confused). By the T.A. this map is way out of date. The Undying lands are no longer reachable for mortals, safe for those who are allowed to enter their realm. And even though Sauron is in fact immortal still I do not think he would be welcome to take over.
However the powers of the Dark Lord can not match those of the Valar. Morgot (former Vala) and stronger than Sauron (though maybe bit foolish or too self-confident), well anyway Morgot could not take over all the Valar alone. Sauron attempted to get the Nuumenoreans to take over the Undying lands and look what Eru did. Who knows what HE would have done next time if angry.
It is not out of reason to believe that Olorin was sent back to help for the downfall of Sauron by Eru himself.
However the powers of the Dark Lord can not match those of the Valar. Morgot (former Vala) and stronger than Sauron (though maybe bit foolish or too self-confident), well anyway Morgot could not take over all the Valar alone. Sauron attempted to get the Nuumenoreans to take over the Undying lands and look what Eru did. Who knows what HE would have done next time if angry.
It is not out of reason to believe that Olorin was sent back to help for the downfall of Sauron by Eru himself.
Or did Jrr mean Olorin was Eru Himself
Thinking About It, The Map is kinda odd and stuff. (I've read 5 Paragraphs of the Silmarillion before it confused me, but I read something about 'The Age of Lamps', 'The Age of Trees' and 'The Age of Men' so It seemed slightly out of date.)
Anyway Thanks for Correcting Me.
Anyway Thanks for Correcting Me.
Aman is pretty accurate but ME is a hopeless jumble. The map isn't so much out of date as a sort of combination of all the ages of the world, with TA places next to stuff from the beginning.This should really be several maps.
Aaah K.
I was thinking the other day about how I visualise The Undying Lands and came across this old thread.
In my mind I see a Valinor, globed in its own environmental sphere, within the void, within reach of ships of the righteous, yet far enough away to be out of reach of Mortality. The Straight Road, for me, is some kind of temporal bridge which one found is the direct and only route to There Blessed Lands of the undying.
It's interesting that Eru's fury was so great, after the Numenorian's actions in sailing in might to Valinor. Yet he really was quite easy on the Dark Lords, never directly intervening. The huge destruction caused by the removal of the ancient West would almost have been apocalyptic for all those left behind on the new Earth.
Interested in others thoughts on this.
I have always seen it as existing inside and invisible water globe like you shake at Christmas. Everything within it perfect, amazing.
I imagine the travel to Valinor like getting lost and find a paradise nobody else's discovered before. It makes me think about the old travellers that went with the ships around the seas and suddenly they discovered new routes and countries, then brought new products to their home lands.
Anyhow, Valinor must be like a kind of eden and protected by the Valars so not everyone will find it. The power of the Valars will push the wind in a way the chosen ships arrive to the safe ports.
Just an opinion.
I like that thought Elbereth. Perhaps between Manwe and his wind, Ulmo and his water and the other Valar's elemental power a bridge of some kind is created when required. We know via the Sil however that sometimes accidental mortal mariners find the straight road, and travel along it until they actually see Taniquetil, only to then die.... Poor things. But this must mean that the air on the way must be breathable. There must be some way the Valar can envelope the straight road, and the final leg into the Harbour with air breathable, for those mortals who perhaps deserve to set foot into Valinor. Bilbo, Frodo, Shadowfax and maybe Gimli seem to have successfully made the journey after the changing of the world.
Yes Azaghal that Map as far as Im concerned is almost useless......
Quoting the Silm.
"And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallónë, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died."
Tolkien could be quite morbid occasionally...
Welcome Azaghal!
I think you are thinking of the 'moth, flame, too bright and so on' quote, but Tolkien would later explain this in a text called Aman/Aman and Mortal Men.
To the Númenóreans they said they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright. (...)'
The text goes on to say that a Man would not age more swiftly in Aman, nor die sooner, but (considering the whole life of a man theoretically born in Aman) he would seem to die swiftly in comparison to the world around him.
The Valar had not the power nor the right to alter the span of mortal life, but change and growth in Aman (but not time itself) was far slower than in Middle-earth, so that the whole life of a Man would be less that one 'year' in Aman.
Here (in this text) a year in Aman = 144 Sun Years incidentally, which explains why mortals would die in less than one Valian Year.
I was watching Dr Who the other night and it contained some time space portal stuff and it reminded me of The Straight Road. A time and space bridge of pure elemental energy, created in our case by Illuvatar and maintained by the Valar. It has an entrance and an exit. Perhaps invisible it travels only in one direction. Star Trek also has dabbled in these kinds of things. It truly shows us how ahead of his time Tolkien was.
"Do you mean in the Third Age? If so, the Undying Lands had been removed from the Circles of the World"
Indeed. That happened after the men of Numenor had tried to wage war against Valinor. (At the time, they were jealous of the gods and them being immortal.
Wait, Brego, you like Doctor Who? Just a question. 
Arwen my dear, I love Dr Who. I'm waiting for him to visit Gondolin! Lol
.jpg){kind=link}