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Yeah, but did you not think the stairs bit going up to meet Celeborn and Galadriel looked ****ing great? I loved it, dunno if it fitted in with the book, but I don't care, it was soooo gorgeous.
I agree with both of you. Lorien disappointed me a little. I had expected a sort of dreamy forest, sth like you said, Alyssa. Jackson's version didn't look like the Golden Wood at all... But the stairs bit was great, although I don't think it was in the book, but no matter. Big Smile Smilie
the only thing good about the movie Lorien were the stairs the rest was rubbish including the elfs
Can we please take any further conversation about the procreation of Elves to a tavern please. While the above is entertaining, it doesn't have much to do with Lorien, its trees, or its closets, at least the Lothlorien as written by Tolkien. Smile Smilie

I'm going to think about this topic overnight and may just do a slash and burn, deleteing everthing that is not about Lorien itself. I find I can not cut and paste blocks of post, I can just delete the whole thing or individual posts, or else edit individual posts.

Bummer: I've got too much power which makes the people unhappy, yet not enough tools to both keep Taz happy and let the people eat their cake. Sad Smilie [Edited on 11/1/2002 by Grondmaster]
Stairs bit was good. We didn't see much of Celeborn did we? I wonder why PJ bothered to put him in at all?

Do you think there were any homosexual elves? Has anyone come across any writings about elven sexuality? Because according to PJ, elves only have intimate relations (avoiding bot) every 200 years or so. How the heck does he know that???
Must have looked at when all the Elves were born and done a bit of maths. Every 200 years or so! :o no thanks Wink Smilie
And it seems unlikely that a good little catholic boy like JRR would have put any gay elves in, but I wouldn't put it past a 21st century film director.
Big Smile Smilie Gay elves with Tolkien: no. Definetely no! With PJ: perhaps. Perhaps so, who'll tell. But what if... ? The elves sucked in general, whether there were any gay ones among them or not. As a true elf-believer, they were not what I expected them to be in real at all. I'll just stick to my fantasy imagination picture! Big Smile Smilie
Yes the reel elves were not real elves. And most elves were gay (in the old sense of the word) except for those that had major resposibilities like maintaining their community, keeping outsiders at bey, etc. Did they enjoy "S**", 'A gentleman would never tell'--I thought Clinton was one until he outright lied rather than just smile and use the above line.

Okay Mothers of the World: Have we said anything here your little darlings shouldn't hear. If so tell me and I'll apply my edit button; until then it can stand as written.
according to PJ, elves only have intimate relations (avoiding bot) every 200 years or so

they could just be like snails...snails only mate once in their whole life, but I don't think anybody thinks snails are gay because of that.

Anyway, I think that in a lot of places, elves are just always portrayed as a little bit just kind of goes along with the stereotype of the character...
Snails only mate once in their whole life! But how come I'm always tripping over f***ing snails (in the biblical sense) and rarely ever see one on it's own anymore?
Male spider do have sex only once in their lifetime Smile Smilie
Yeah, but it's not through choice is it Smile Smilie
Yeah, we can blame the whole bit on Ungoliant, had she better trained her prodgeny, we'd be overrun by horny male spiders.

Probably cause the female snail and slug lay closer to a thousand (I'm guessing here kids) eggs rather than the more custumary number of, say two. Big Smile Smilie

I can't remember seeing the flowers that little Elanor was named after, did Peter show them to us.[Edited on 7/1/2002 by Grondmaster]
*chomp, munch, munch*

Never had a cheating husband yet...Wink Smilie

It must be nice being a worm though...just change one end into a male & get the other end drunk each time you feel like reproducing.
I just read the Micheal Martinez essays on "Elves by the Numbers". According to him, Toliken wrote that elves marry sometime after their 50th year and immediatley start their families - spacing them out by about a century. Interesting. I will check his references, just as soon as I can get a copy of "Morgoth's Ring".

Still, I cant help but think that elves get in the family way very hastily, considering their life-span. What's the hurry?

All this does not really tell us how often they had sex though. Elven women may have been capable of contraception, whether herbal or with some form of mental control. Since they seem to be capable of telepathy - why not other bodily functions?

Still, HW might be right Elrond must be seriously frustrated since his wife has been oversea for about 600 yrs or so...
Oh to be a worm.......
I think there were the flowers there, they just didn't mention them by name.
Thanks, Skwrl.

Is our forum going to get put on the verboten list because some parent's filter dislikes the three letter "S" word? If so maybe we had better tone it down a bit, except everything we've said here is clean, wholesome even. Forget I said anything, unless you've seen something here you don't want your children to read.
3 letter S word? Which one's that? Sat, sad, sod, sit, ummmmm...... Have you seen that famous word beginning with C that the filter doesn't know yet Grondy? Can't remember where I saw it, but it's here somewhere (and it wasn't me this time)
What have we got to do with the elven's s** life anyway? Big Smile Smilie
Are there any parents reading this? Not being members, I mean? Can't they just leave instead of us changing our language? (not offending anyone here) Smile Smilie
Famous word beginning with a C? Hmmm... Cat? Cop? Cub? Big Smile Smilie

This topic started with the question:

How on earth did PJ know how often Elves enjoy intimate relations?

As far as I know the specifics are not in any of Tolkien's writing. So how did they extrapolate comments like "Elves only have sex every 200 years or so..." Taking artistic licience too far I think, and for what purpose? It is never an issue in the movie or the book...unless Aragorn has some misgivings about his new fiance...(hehe)
So how did they extrapolate comments like "Elves only have sex every 200 years or so..." Taking artistic licience too far I think, and for what purpose?

True, Allyssa. Elves could be more active than monkeys for all we know. As you said, maybe they used contraceptives - or maybe female Elves only ovulated every 200 years or so.
GIVE ME CAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why is Tolkien's Lorien so magic a place, and its description so heart-stirring?
In his essay "On fairy stories" Tolkien writes about the ultimate Joy as being "poignant
as grief". In Lothlorien we feel exactly this kind of joy.
We are delighted with its beauty - and we grieve
for Gandalf... and these two contrasting emotions sum up.
And we know that we have found the most beautiful place to stay in..
but we must leave it very soon.
And we cannot see Lothlorien in blossom: there is winter... and this also adds some sense
of bereavement...

This sense of bereavement is for both Gandalf and the beautiful trees, to which spring will never return. They are beautiful, as is Galadriel; and she is feeling this loss doubly so, because no matter the outcome of Frodo's quest, she will lose. Either by being conquered by Sauron, resulting in the woods being turned into a charcoal heap, or else because her ring Nenya, will no longer be able to restrain time from the woods, and rather than see it fade, she will choose to sail off into the sunset. Either way, she is going to lose beautiful Lothlorien in all but memory. Sad Smilie
Lorien is one of the most mysterious and wonderful places in ME, as described by Tolkien. He gave a mighty description of it, as well as many references to it, etc. And there is the fact that Gandalf has only just died when they reach the wood, as some sort of shelter. Smile Smilie
I agree with every word, Grondmaster!
I would like to make yet another comment... about the use of colours (i'm very
sensitive to that!).
In Lorien we have yellow (golden), blue, white, green - but no black and red. Even
the shadows of trees are green and not black. Red and black are the colours of Mordor.
Red (scarlet) seems to be even "worse" than black; the livery of Minas Tirith is black
and black is the standard of Aragorn.
At the very beginning of the story red was friendly and warm -
do you remember these glowing nasturtiums in Bilbo's garden in Bag End?
And after the fall of Sauron black and red seem to be "redeemed", too!
In Cormallen we have trees with dark leaves and scarlet blossom...
I dont know i thought of Lorien as a kind of fort of trees you know trees very close together. I imagianed that the first time the fellowship met Galadriel and Celeborn they were in some kind of dining hall
Yes, but there were also lawns, for instance, on the hill of Cerin Amroth there was grass full of flowers - elanors and niphredils. And the Fellowship met first Celeborn and Galadriel in a great hall high inside the crown of a huge living tree (they had to climb up many ladders in order to get there...)
Grondmaster is right! Again... There are many beautiful places in ME, but I still think Lorien must have been one of the most wonderful ones. Even if it's just because Galadriel lived there... Smile Smilie
I so thought that Lorien was the prettiest part of the movie! I really liked the stairs. I don't think it showed enough of the scenery though. The cameras were always on character closeup. The only part where we really saw Lorien was when the Fellowship was walking the stairs, and partly when Galadriel went through the forest and woke up Frodo. I thought they could've made it seem more "Elvishy" I guess.

Most people feel Lorien was given short shrift in the movie. I believe I read elsewhere on the forum that the November issue of the FOTR DVD will have as a supplement, many shots of Loth-Lorien that were cut from the original movie. Maybe then we will be given a little more scenery to upon which to stare in awe and wonder. Cool Smilie
Lorien was perhaps given short shrift, but at least they mentioned it! The Old Forest was left out! Totally left out! (sorry, I'm a freak!) Paranoid Smilie

I do hope they will. Big Smile Smilie
Coming back to the book for a moment, there is a quote that I find quite mindboggling. I only noticed it recently. It's funny how, when you've been reading a story constantly since you were a child, you continue not to notice the things you missed as a child.

’omer says "few escape her nets" and expresses utter amazement that Aragorn & co got out of L’rien alive. In context, we are bristling along with Gimli, or at least laughing at ’omer's ignorance, chalking it up to old wives' tales. And yet as Gandalf says, old wives' tales are not mere superstition!

So I was totally caught offguard when I hit this my last read through:

Quoth Faramir to Frodo:

'The Edain, the fathers of the N’menoreans, fought besides the Elves in the first wars, and were rewarded by the gift of the kingdom in the midst of the Sea, within sight of Elvenhome. But in Middle-Earth Men and Elves became estranged in the days of darkness, by the arts of the Enemy, and by the slow changes of time in which each kind walked further down sundered roads. Men now fear and misdoubt the Elves, and yet know little of them. And we of Gondor grow like other Men, like the men of Rohan; for even they, who are foes of the Dark Lord, shun the Elves and speak of the Golden Wood with dread.
'Yet there are among us still some who have dealings with the Elves when they may, and ever and anon one will go in secret to L’rien, seldom to return. Not I. For I deem it perilous now for mortal man wilfully to seek out the Elder People. Yet I envy you that you have spoken with the White Lady.'

He's speaking in the present tense.
And he's clearly saying it's more than one person going there.

So he can't merely be reporting rumors of Thorongil/Aragorn going there after leaving Gondor.


Don't you wish Tolkien had pursued/explained this plotline at some point?!!!

Moderator Smilie The only reason I edited this post was to turn off an overlong signature. Moderator Smilie

[Edited on 20/4/2003 by Valedhelgwath]
That's an interesting point you have highlighted there, Sepdet. I had not noticed that one before either. Reading it the first time I took it to mean he knew of Men (more than one) who went in secret to Lorien, and of those, most did not return. That would indicate either their journey was hazardous, or they chose to stay with the elves.

Reading it again, however, Gandalf came to mind. Gandalf was a friend and teacher of Faramir. No doubt Gandalf visited Galadriel on occasions, and perhaps would mention this to Faramir. Faramir is perhaps saying, "and ever and anon one (Gandalf) will go in secret to L’rien, seldom to return (Gandalf would have been an infrequent visitor to Faramir, just has he had been to Bilbo and Frodo.

I must admit, it is an interesting concept, having Men in Lorien.
Hmmmm. Good thought. Only trouble is that they'd already been talking about Gandalf (in fact Faramir mentions him above), so I think he'd say Mithrandir if that's what he meant. Also he's making a distinction between Men of Gondor who now believe as the Rohirrim do, that Elves are dangerous and suspect, and Men of Gondor who still believe as they used to. He says "us". Also, Faramir is one of the few people smart enough to realize Mithrandir is older than dirt and is not exactly human (although at best Faramir could only have vague suspicions what he really was).

As far as I can tell, either there are Men living in L’rien (those who did not return), or the Galadhrim have been steadily picking off the most adventurous citizens of Gondor for some time.

"This puzzle winds itself ever in new riddles."

[Edited on 4/20/03 by sepdet]

[Edited on 20/4/2003 by Valedhelgwath]
I have always read it that a few Gondorites (Gondorians) ocasssionaly travel to and from Lorien for intellectual commerce or endeavors like to trade news as to what was happening further north and south. After all the Imrahils also had some Elven blood flowing in their veins. Some of these messengers or sages may have decided to retire there with the Ladies blessing. Other people may have gone there seeking adventure and sadly found it only on the pointy end of Haldir and his brothers' arrows. Elf Winking Smilie
I pictured Lorien to be brighter, more golden. With more sunlight filtering through the trees. In the movie, Lorien was too dark.
Exactky my feeling Lasgalen! And I have seen very Lorien-like woodlands in the "real" world. In September-October hornbeam forests in Poland correspond exactly to the descriotion of Lorien, their floor is golden, their roof is golden, and tree trunks are silvery grey. On a sunny day they turn into a magical land of breathtaking beauty, all made of dazzling sun and lemon-yellow leaves, translucent like crystal or stained glass. Every leaf, every grass is glowing and you feel you made your way to another, enchanted world!
I didn't expect that, because I also didn't feel like that while reading the book. I felt more like that was how Lorien once had been, but now because the end was approaching and Galadriel's power getting weaker, it started to fade. And even if it was still beautiful, it was only a glimps of what it once was. Like the end of summer.
Ah, Lothlorien, the fairest of woods! The time hath stoped its flow, seduced by your beauty! *sighs*

I liked the way Lorien was pictured in the movie; not quite my image of it, but it was OK. I guess everyone of us has his view of LotR; it's hard (or rather impossible) to make a movie that pleases all these views! Though I don't agree with the changes to the book, I still think FotR and TTT movies were great!

Anything-that's-Tolkien-related can only be GREAT!!!
Exactky my feeling Lasgalen! And I have seen very Lorien-like woodlands in the "real" world. In September-October hornbeam forests in Poland correspond exactly to the descriotion of Lorien, their floor is golden, their roof is golden, and tree trunks are silvery grey. On a sunny day they turn into a magical land of breathtaking beauty, all made of dazzling sun and lemon-yellow leaves, translucent like crystal or stained glass. Every leaf, every grass is glowing and you feel you made your way to another, enchanted world!
That would be my description of Lorien in the summer of its life, while I imagined it a tad bit darker in these the last days of its autumn; though, not like in the darkness of its winter when Queen Arwen will withdrew to there. Then I imagined bare limbed greyness and much sadness and lamentation over what had passed before.
Lorien when the Elves are gone... I imagine it as grey, chill and misty, not particularly dark, but grey and sunless, with cold biting wind, whispering in dead leaves and shaking ceaselessly thin bare tree branches...
Among the gossamer frond of fern,
Down paths of oak and yarrow.
Slips fleet of foot and swift of hand..
to loose a golden arrow.

With eyes of sad and silver grey
and hair so golden fair,
walks the hidden hero,
The brave and true, Haldir.
Lorien was a strongly defended place, Sauron attacked there, sending his forces there more than twice, but each time, he failed, and only if he was there personally he could defeat them Smile Smilie
i am Hobbit, but i would like to be with elves. i like to adventure their places... Tongue Smilie for holidays....Lothlorien is a fair place. i would like to know the past of the elves and their tales. and what's more? Tongue Smilie