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Thread: Secondary Reality

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I wanted to create a new thread about Secondary Reality. There was a moment in LOTR, the Book, (well, actually there are so many moments...); the one I was thinking of still sends a shiver down my spine....Frodo & Sam are resting in the Pass at Cirith Ungol; just before they go into Shelob's cave.... Sam starts this little speech..I still get goosebumps reading this stuff...he says, quting from memory, something like...."do you think we will ever get put into a Story, Mr Frodo..."? Do you think the children will gather round & say give us the story of Frodo, dad..." "He was the famousest (sic) of all the hobbits, wasn't he Dad?" "Yes, Son, and that's saying something..." And then Frodo laughs from his heart, a sound that hadn't been heard in those parts for generations.... Then Frodo says, "I wanted to hear more about Sam"..."they should have put in more of his talk, it makes me laugh...Frodo wouldn't have got far without Sam, would he Dad ?" And then they talk about the heroes of old, whether they thought their stories would ever be told....and then Sam realises they are still in the same story...becaus the Light of The Two Trees was captured in the Silmarilli; and Earendil had the Silmaril on the prwo ofhis ship; which became the evening star; and the light from this star was captured in the phial of Galadriel, which Frodo has in his pocket; so....they are in the same is still going on.... And my point is?....well, it makes me breathless..this is such a brilliant literary device..!!..because it makes you believe that this story is TRUE...and , you know what ?...I do.. I do believe somwhere, somehow, either in the past, or in some other dimension, this REALLY happened...Frodo & Sam were real people who sat outside that cave in Cirith Ungol....I don't know how...or if I am making any sense,,I am probably crazy....I don't know... What does everyone think...??

Well, Alana, I understand you completely, and I also remember that part quite clearly by myself, and it was a very good event. I've had same thoughts about many kind of things, and especially when it comes to The Silmarillion. Every time when I read that book, I hear the sound of a closing door, and there I am. Alone in the realm of secrets and legends, visions and dreams, myths and fantasy. And if anyone cannot disturb my peace, then I won't notice anything else. Many have said that when I decide to leave this world and go to 'the world of my mind', I won't see anyone, or hear anything, I'll just be still and look into one point, seeing a clear vision of something, and that's a very epic and wonderful feeling. Then I just come back to my senses, usually with a good idea or a certain part from a various book clearly imprinted into my mind. Smile Smilie

There are far too many games, movies and books, which I would like to write down, but let's just say that I would pay any price, if I could live in a world full of magic, fantasy and myths.

Long live the old times, long live the middle age.

I think I understand something of your sentiment and the Bible does say that there is nothing new under the sun and also it says that none of us are going through anything that someone, somewhere in time has not already gone through in some form. The essence of those passages to me is that here are two men, I shall call them men because that is what we are dealing with, well here they are, snatched as it were from all the peace and normality of life, eating, drinking, marrying and bringing forth offspring, and suddenly they find themselves in a war and they must choose a side. I believe we are from birth all engaged in this same war until the end of time, good vs. evil.  And being children in their hearts they remember when they played with their play swords and got the bad guys or when at bed time they were told a story of someone who was average and then from sorrow and being engaged in the war they never meant to be part of, became heroes and became the subject of lays and writings. yes it is the neverending story as it were and we are all in it.

I have always believed we mortals and animal world are in a once upon a time from the moment of inception and at some point as thinking beings we decide just who we shall be and what part in the play of life we desire to play. The hero, the evil ruiner of lives and dreams, the onlooker, the innocent bystander plunged into the play and having to wing it. I still believe that.

Nice thread Alana.  I totally agree with your sentiments regarding Toliens work.  This shows the power of a well told story.  The power to pull you in and the power to make you want to believe.  Tolkien's stories are easy to believe because of the skill in which they are written as well as the passion for this pre history creation which Tolkien has shared.  Its almost as though JRRT is describing a time and place which he can not only see, but also a place in which he has lived.  I feel that my life has been made the better due to the world of Arda and the tales which last for eons and eons.

Im left now wanting more.  I wish that the Tolkien Society would commission an author to further the stories of middle earth.  Not complete them for that would be impossible.  Perhaps new 4th age stories.  What happened in Ellasar's reign and beyond?

Well.....I am so gratified by your comments....I am so glad I am not the only one who feels this way...but , of course, I wouldn't be, on a site like this one!!,,,,haha....

Oerath, I completly understand where you are coming know, I have often wondered; when we create a world of fiction, does we make that world, in some sense, some time or place; come into existence?

The Professor called it "Sub Creation".

Or do we unconciously open a window on a world that was already there ?

Or am i going mad

LeeLee, yes you are so right...2 men who got plucked from their homeland and thrown into war....much like The Professor's experience in World War 1....and yes, I guess we all have to choose, everyday, between what is right and what is easy.....

Brego, LeeLee, Oerath......I have this childish fantasy; I wonder if when I die, God will allow me another life in Middle Earth.....or perhaps in The Blessed Realm....well, I suppose that is like "heaven"....well, there, I 've said it...I am scared now.. I think i have gone too far and you will chastise me for being inappropriate.....!!

"I wonder if when I die, God will allow me another life in Middle Earth" - This is exactly what I was talking about with a friend of mine this afternoon, when we watched together The Return of the King.

My grandma once told me something I will never forget: she said that she had seen a speech by our last Pope on tv in which he was talking about Heaven:  according to him, there's not really a "heaven", but death is a sort of endless sleep during which we dream about heaven the way we imagine it to be, and the way to want it to be. This happened at least 6 or 7 years ago, and honestly I cannot tell whether my grandma understood the Pope's words correctly, but I don't care. Because that's exactly the way I imagine Heaven. No matter the way I'll die, of one thing I can be sure: Sam will be there waiting for me, and we'll go together to eat something under the Party Tree, and wait for the night to see Gandalf's fireworks. And then, well...the road goes ever on and on...for eternity.

I'm sure your grandma misunderstood, as I never heard the last pope say anything like that.  But even if he had, that would have been his opinion and nothing more.  A pope cannot make sweeping changes like that.  But heaven will have much more than most people think.  "There shall be a new heaven and a new earth."  We will have a part of heaven reserved for what will give joy to the physical side of our nature.  In that part, we shall certainly see all that is best and most beautiful from Tolkien and many others.  And the Sub-creator himself will be there to give us his tour. 


beautifully said dear Gandalf. Yes he shall satisfy the holy desire of every living thing, so really that is incomprehensible to us, but not so much now to our dear dear professor!

Oh Wow,,,!!...when we all meet in heaven...will we know each other?...I am sure somehow we will....Laura, LeeLee...we will meet...we will have a pint of ale at The Green Dragon...haha!!