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Thread: You found Tolkien where?

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Hey all,

Was reading a sci-fi book last night, A Maze of Death by Philip K. Dick, and about 5 pages into it the main character gets spiritual guidance from a 'visrecord' from the past. Lo and behold the 'phonograph' starts spewing the following:

"...Legolas is right. We may not shoot and old man so, at unawares and unchallenged, whatever fear or doubt be on us. Watch and wait!"

It continues on in the background "'What have you to say that you did not say at our last meeting? ... Or Perhaps you have things to unsay?' Gandalf said." [protagonist shuts off 'phonograph' and mulls over situation] I like it he (the protagonist) said. I want it. Gandalf he thought, I have nothing to unsay; prayers are not often answered and I will take this."

Firstly I think it is cool that this fictional future has part of it's thought structure based upon tolkien. Secondly I'm curious as to whether others have found indirect tolkien references in other books.

I can only remember one off the top of my head and thats the bible, except that was written centuries ago before Tolkien was even alive, but i remember that the Devil was called a many number of things, one of which i can remember that has some similarity to Tolkien is that he was called Gog of Magog and its sounds very similar to Morgoth and Gorgoroth Orc Going Huh Smilie

Another that i can remember is that Melkor wanted to be Illuvator the same as the Devil wanted to be ruler of everything and went against the Holy Ones and was banished to the Earth or Arda for Melkor, sounds the same with the 'In the Beggining' part of Arda and Bible Teacher Smilie
That seems a pretty direct reference in my "book." Loial son of Arent son of Halan writes in his Crossroads of Twilight (IIRC) that an Asha'man once used "Mr. Underhill" as an alias, and mentions in his The Great Hunt an inn by the name of The Nine Rings (not to be confused with The Nine Horse Hitch, which is something completely different, though still the name of an inn, in Lugard.) I also recall a reference to Nine Fingered Frodo, but can't pin down where or in what capacity, and have yet to find it in Ideal Seek (we could use an Ideal Seek for Tolkien, if we could find someone to key the text.)

Gog and Magog are place names in scripture, by the way, though they are in service of the devil. So far as I now Morgoth was never in Gorgoroth; indeed, it seems unlikely he would leave his northern hidey hole for another set to with Ungoliant. ;-p
I wonder if those authors have given credit to Tolkien in a footnote or elsewhere? Wouldn't they be infringing copyright if they didn't? Or wouldn't they need permission to use such an obvious reference?
Secondly I'm curious as to whether others have found indirect tolkien references in other books.

I believe a character in Terry Brooks' "Sword of Shannara" novel is called Durin. He's an Elf, though, instead of a Dwarf.
Ah, yes, and now you've reminded me via rhyme of one I forgot, Vir; the first time I read the sig from the wotmaniac that went "I demand the return of Hurin!" I thought, "gee, what a great idea! Oh, they mean the Sniffer." And if it's stuff like that, well, I don't see anyway you can claim the Nine Rings as intellectual property, much less "Mr. Underhill" (I almost mentioned the "Bili under the Hill" reference in TSR, but that just draws on the same Celtic believes about elf mounds Jordan uses for the Finns; maybe Robert Adams should sue Jordan for stealing Bili th Axes name, too?) Though I do think Belgarath is borderline. ;-p If it's just a couple words in a different context, no harm, no foul, but if it's just a thinly veiled ripoff, that's a whole other matter. Though I'm not a lawyer, and wouldn't advise anyone to chance it....
Tolkien picked names from Norse mythology too, so I can't see the big deal here.

In fact, "Sam Gamgee" was the name of a real person when LOTR came out - JRRT actually received a letter of this person.
So you think the composer of the Elder Edda will sue over the hobbit, Vir? I agree: lighten up, people.
Strangely I was just reading yesterday about the shock to Ronald when he got the letter from Sam Gamgee and wrote him back describing how nicely he portrayed the character of Sam.
Then it said he worried greatly over the possibility of receiving a letter from someone called Smeagol or Gollum! That would have been very funny, but more than one would certainly make it seem like less than a coincidence that he was ascribing certain things to real people.
While other than what has been offered is all I too know of references like that, I hear a lot of people now when writing stories or papers that seem to weave Tolkien and his characters into their work but in such a way that one really could not do a thing about it. Tolkien certainly did borrow things like the ring itself from ancient Norse and such mythology. There really is nothing new under the sun it seems.