Lord Of All
Posted Friday 16th March 2007 (09:15am)
Well I would take it as pretty solid proof unless its disputed in a more reliable source. Morgoth's Ring is usually pretty accurate with a few exceptions.
Posted Friday 16th March 2007 (12:43pm)
Simply because something appears in HME is not a good reason to pay it less attention than something else Tolkien himself never published.
The History of Middle-Earth indeed says a lot of things... pick out anything from the constructed Silmarillion and unless Christopher Tolkien invented it, it's from HME in the larger sense.
Posted Friday 16th March 2007 (01:26pm)
You can pay as much or as little attention to is as you like, but HOME is still filled with ideas and sketches and we have no way of knowing what the Professor would have chosen in the end. LoA said "this is the way it is". But I don't think it should be said like that, since there is no way of knowing. We can only guess.
Posted Friday 16th March 2007 (02:16pm)
You can pay as much or as little attention to is as you like, but HOME is still filled with ideas and sketches and we have no way of knowing what the Professor would have chosen in the end.
HME is filled with the Silmarillion too (keep in mind).
LoA said "this is the way it is". But I don't think it should be said like that, since there is no way of knowing. We can only guess.
If I post Earendil slew Ancalagon that's from HME. It isn't necessarily 'final' either but how many people include that caveat every time they post this for example (I could post text in which T’rin was prophesied to slay Ancalagon)?
What Tolkien left on paper at his passing is 'what there is' though certain factors might exist that give one 'unpublished' idea weight over another unpublished idea.
Posted Friday 16th March 2007 (02:57pm)
Of course some parts of HOME are more likely to be true than others. And the Sil can be seen as part of the HOME series, if that is what suits you best. People have different opinions, mine is that HOME quotes usually should be taken with a grain of salt (some with a lot more salt than others), while the Sil, LOTR and the Hobbit are as close to the final result of the Profs ideas as we can get.
Posted Friday 16th March 2007 (05:37pm)
Of course some parts of HOME are more likely to be true than others. And the Sil can be seen as part of the HOME series, if that is what suits you best.
Essentially there is no Silmarillion outside of what Tolkien wrote, and that is to be found in HME. The construction was made out of what might be called the larger HME, as sources like the Narn were used too, for example, Unfinished Tales being produced before the XII volume series (as it turned out).
The 'new' Children of H’rin (coming out) doesn't exist either as a Tolkien-made work. Christopher is again constructing something using his father's extant materials, out of HME in the larger sense. And it's not intended to represent the version in an ultimate or 'final' sense, but a version.
People have different opinions, mine is that HOME quotes usually should be taken with a grain of salt (some with a lot more salt than others), while the Sil, LOTR and the Hobbit are as close to the final result of the Profs ideas as we can get.
And when you mean the Silmarillion of 1977 (by 'the Sil') that is simply not something Tolkien himself ever constructed or published. The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, The Road Goes Ever On, are all a different animal in comparison to Christopher Tokien's Silmarillion (who had help from Guy Kay).
Tolkien left piles of unpublished material at his passing, and the fact that Christopher Tolkien first published some of it (1977)... then later most of it (HME) is simply due to his decision to try one presentation before (he decided to try) another.
Posted Friday 16th March 2007 (06:54pm)
My, one goes away for a tiny while and comes back to find an entire encyclopedia added in her absence.
In the Letters of Tolkien, in letter after letter Jrr shared just everything from his heart, his ideas, his hopes and desires concerning them, his triumphs and frustrations and failures with Christopher above everyone else except perhaps Edith and on this I can find nothing. So unless that is true, than no other human knew as much, was priveleged with as much knowledge and inner thoughts of Jrr than his beloved son Christopher. We do not and cannot know the hours they spent when together just talking, or be privy to the untold numbers of letters that went back and forth between the two that were not preserved and we will never share. So, because Christopher like his father was a stickler on points and such I believe that ANYTHING he has put down is because he implicitly knew about it from h is father if only in hints here and there and projected dreams and so I think were his father here he would heartily approve and give his 'seal' to it. I feel very strongly on this point. He is the most careful of men and would never in my opinion put down one thing that he seriously from the depths of his heart did not believe would be the thoughts and vision and such of his father. He has dedicated his life to preserving and putting out there as best as he can all his father's unfulfilled dreams writing wise and so to do anything apart from that is not even in his character.
Posted Friday 16th March 2007 (05:42pm)
Christopher Tolkien has revealed your characterization is just not so LeeLee.
We have CJRT himself speaking about the published version of 1977.
Lord Of All
Posted Friday 16th March 2007 (05:39pm)
As Galin said the Silmarillion is essentially HOME. Some parts are worded slightly differently and they were the parts altered by Chris. If you notice you will find that over 90% of the Silmarillion is in HOME. HOME is all Christopher Tolkien had to create a published Sil.
Of course there are some incorrect old versions of things in HOME but they are pretty obvious. The part I am refering to about the Halls of Mandos though is pretty accurate.
The only truly reliable books are LOTR and The Hobbit.