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Thread: Future of Middle Earth

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Cirdan began this thread with the following post.

Hello, this is my first time to yes I am a Planet Tolkien Virgin. My question is regarding the Fourth Age. Has Tolkien ever written anything concerning this? I doubt it but whenever I read LOTR I always feel a deep sense of saddness, knowing how everything fades at the end of the 3rd age. This is fine as explanations I can find for Elves,Men and Hobbits but what of the other races??? The Dwarves in particular. What happens to them? do they exist in the same way that Hobbits continue to exist? I am aware that there may be no finite answer to this, but if anyone has any ideas...............

Valedhelgwath replied

Hi Cirdan.
I personally haven't read anything beyond Fourth Age 120, when King Elessar died and Legolas and Gimli passed over the sea.

The Fourth Age was described as being the age of the Domination of Men when most of the elves, particularly the Eldar passed over the sea, and those of the other Non-Mannish races who remained dwindled and hid.

Personally, I tend to look at things as though we actually live in the fourth age now, and the events Tolkien wrote about are part of our own ancient history. His books, after all, are as detailed as many history books (though a little more interesting to read.)

I must admit, I've spent a good few hours searching for elves in the woods over the years.

Welcome to the forum Cirdan. Smile Smilie

As Val says, we only have a record of the first few years, which can be found in Appendices A and B of The Return of the King (ROTK).
Thanks guys, I tend to see ourselves as more in the 5th or 6th age of middle earth, and I have friends who believe soooo deeply that there are still some dark Elves lurking around. Before I left the UK one of them was actually searching my garage (That is, a friend looking there for Elves, not the other way round...hmmmm!):0:
So I guess its left for our own imagination then? Do you know of any fan writings out there about this? I dont hold with the theory that the 3rd age is set before our last ice age, more that if the 3rd age has any relation at all to our world then it is a dream reality (I've read too much SandmanWink Smilie ) Considering when it was written and who it was written by I reckon there must be something to this theory. Tolkien it seems is capturing the diminishing English countryside of his youth in the shire, (whether subconsciously or not....) and culminating in the industrialisation seen in the "scourging of the shire" I know that he claimed that none of his writings were intended as alegory but surely there must be something of a reflection?? (the war, his childhood, industrialisation....)
Anyway, what was my point? oh yeah, Thanks for posting a reply! Now wheres the bar?????Smoke Smilie
p.s sorry if anyone got bored there, I tend to go off at tangents a lotShaking Head Smilie
Cirdan my friend, we have plenty of Bars down at the bottom of the Index page. Welcome, and come in the Forsaken Inn for a few pints on me.
Oh, btw, anyone who goes looking for Elves has been eating the WRONG sort of mushrooms a little too often if you ask me Wink Smilie
Hello Cirdan, and welcome! I haven't seen anything about the 4th Age either, except for what's written in the Appendices of LotR.

There's nothing wrong with having friends that go around looking for Elves either, our Tommy does that all the time. Winking Smilie
hmmmm, Mushrooms might well have been something to do with it! But seeing as theyre legal where I am, then are they the wrong sort???? I'm sure Farmer Maggot may have something to sayabout that too! However, question for a different site I think!Very Big Grin Smilie
But, anyway thanks for the offer of a pint, Any of that 1420 left?
("Ah! That was proper 1420 that was!")
The reason (partly) that I posted this was also because I love the Dwarves. They remain somewhat an enigma in Middle Earth. True they're covered in The Hobbit somewhat but a lot is left out there and the chronologies dont go into nearly enough detail for my liking. At the end of the third age how many do you think are left in the Iron hills and elsewhere?? And after the fall of Sauron why do not more Dwarves follow in Balins footsteps and reclaim Moria? (the Balrogs gone and most of the Orcs) What a great subject for a story eh!
Hey, If there are Elves still around do you reckon they walk among us disguised like Spock (you know hes really an Elf) in that Star Trek movie?
spock an elf.... would that make Bones a dwarf???? They do like to bicker with one another! :P
Very true! and I reckon Scotty had a certain hobbitlike quality. ...Its all starting to make sense now!!!

and maaaaybe Vulcan is Valinor.........

God i've got to get more sleep. Very Sad Smilie
Maybe you should... Very Big Grin Smilie

I just discovered this topic, so sorry if I'm a bit late...

Hey there Golly, who said I was looking around for Elves?? Smoke Smilie did Tommy dear.

Somewhere in the Beorn thread. Or was it LoTR. Or Fellowship section...

*minutes later*

There I was, hunting for the thread where Tommy went elf-hunting, and I stumbled across some of our old ones.

Gosh, didn't think we were that daft! We sounded like a right bunch of loonies. Disturbed Smilie

[Edited on 29/8/2002 by Ungoliant]
... "yes, it's all part of the plan, I think. There was a terribly good reason for it which I can't quite remember at the moment. It was something to do with"
Ford exploded.
"You're a load of useless bloody loonies!" he shouted.
"Ah yes, that was it," beamed the Captain, "that was the reason."
Big Laugh Smilie from The Restaurant at the End of the Universe by Douglas Adams
Big Laugh Smilie

So our plan obviously worked then, eh?

Btw, that was the captain that liked the 8-hour baths, wasn't it Grondy?

Duck Smilie
no Legolas left from the place were the elves of Lothlorien used to take the ship Dol Amroth
I was always under the impression (from reading RotK at any rate), that Legolas built his own ship in Ithilien, sailed it down the Anduin, and from there over the sea. If this is the case, and Legolas was capable of building his own ship, the twins may have been able to do so too.

As for passengers, the only thing mentioned is that Gimli may have been with Legolas when he left Middle Earth. There is nothing actually saying only the two of them took this boat. It is possible, therefore, that there may have been more passengers/crew too.
no Legolas left from the place were the elves of Lothlorien used to take the ship Dol Amroth
Huh? We live in Middle-Earth? Does that mean that the Straight Road is true? Besides, I don't see any references to our world.

Whatever happened to ALL the Elves? Did they all go to Valinor? Or did Iluvatar revoke his gift (immortality) to them?

I'm not advocating that we live in Middle Earth and that elves etc are anything but works of fiction, Tar-Aldarion, but most cultures around the world do seem to have legends concerning elves, dwarves, pixies or some other supernatural race/beast/place etc. These legends far far predate anything Tolkien wrote.

And what of mysterious UFO sightings, close encounters of the third kind, etc.. Don't the little bug-eyed green men that seem to be the common sighting have certain characteristics they share with elves. Couldn't elven magic (particularly their ability to move unnoticed) explain why UFO's are able to pop up and disappear. Maybe they are not having to travel the impossible depths of space at all, but are living here, unseen, among us all the time. Who says they have to live in trees anymore? They were always more advanced than humans. Maybe they are those technically advanced little green men.
Tolkien was inspired by all those tales of Faerie and suchlike form mythology, and ALWAYS intended his work to be of the same type. Some forgotten ancient legend which led to the world we know now. (Hence all the crap about there still being hobbits but they're really good at hiding). In fact, at one point, Tol Eressea was gonna be Ireland.... nuts, I tell you, totally nuts...
The myths about Elves, the Firstborn, strong, beautiful, intelligent, may have some real foundations in the recent discoveries of anthropologists. It is now generally assumed that our ancestors, the Cro-Magnon men, were taller than we modern humans, had larger brains, and their art was superb (sculptures, cave paintings...). I wonder what were their songs? We have dwindled... why? because some of them desired to be masters and enslaved their brothers, and we are largely the descendants of these slaves rather than their masters?
Slaves? That's so sad. . .
I wonder what were their songs?

I don't know Eryan, but I imagine them to be very beautiful!
So the big question is: What happened to Elladan and Ellohir?
Did they cross the sea with him or did they stay with Arwen?
My money is on that the crossed with Elrond. As they were fighting a war of errantry during the war of the ring, as if they were trying to get it out of there system before they went to the undying lands!
I believe we said under the Characters threads, that the twins stayed in Middle-earth to take their revenge against the Orcs for what the did to their mother Celebrian, until the last known Orc was dispatched, after which they departed for Valinor to reunite with both their mother and father, their sister having already died and gone to join the late King Ellesar.

"Where did they get the ship?" you say. Well, how about they made a deal with C’rdan who built and hid a ship for them prior to his departure over the sea? (This is mere speculation and has no textural postAuthorIDity to back it up). Read Smilie
"Where did they get the ship?"
Or even from the same place that Legolas got his when he left Middle Earth in FA 120-121. Knowing their sister had died, they may even have gone with Legolas.
Doesn't it say in the appedicies that the dwarfs became reclusive. The Eru didn't revoke the gift of immortality from the elves just Elrond's descendants who didn't cross the great sea with him. So the big question is: What happened to Elladan and Ellohir?
Did they cross the sea with him or did they stay with Arwen?
My money is on that the crossed with Elrond. As they were fighting a war of errantry during the war of the ring, as if they were trying to get it out of there system before they went to the undying lands!
They did sail down the Anduin but they left the main land at Dol Amroth as opposed to the Grey Havens.
I think it was more likely that the twins went with Elrond Otherwise they would also have died.
I don't know about all of you but.......don't alot of people you see around seem a bit ELVISH? could these be the decendents of Earendil the half-elven? I hope so! Tongue Smilie

(Only 3 lines (including spaces) are permitted in your signature Earendill, sorry, I had to turn it off. Nice quote though- Plastic)

[Edited on 20/1/2003 by PlasticSquirrel]
I've heared once a rumor, I belive its only that, a rumor. I heared that Christopher Tolkien wrote a book that told the story of the travel that Frodo and the other Elves did to Aman when they left, its only a rumor but it would be great if it was true.
Unless they all sailed off the edge of the world and drowned Sad Smilie
I really agree with Earendil...maybe there are Elves walking among us or I am saying that just because I would like to be one anyway J.R.R. Tolkien work brings fire in our hearts(that's the way I feel it)!
Maybe we should look around more careful.Serching Smilie
lol Elda, how did i know you were going to say that?
It's a bit late to answer, I know, but I'm kind of new, so ...

If, indeed, Tolkien meant for Middle-earth to be the imaginary past of our own real world, than Men have their answer to this question. Let's consider our Genesis (4000 BC) to be about the same time as the fall of Barad-dur. Consider also an age to be about 3000 years. That would mean we are in the fifth or the sixth age. But JRR thought the ages lessened as they passed, so we might as well be in the seventh or even the eighth one ... Who can tell?

Btw, I'm working on a parallel between Middle-earth and the present world. It's really interesting and I'll post it as soon as I'm done.

I think I read somewhere that the Ages were broken up according to major events, and that this was around the beginning of the 8th Age. (So maybe WWII = end of 7th Age?)
What about WWI Arcormacolind’va? That was a major event but could an age really last for only about 30years and then be a new age?
In response to Elda's comment, i think hobbits are still among us. I have been fortunate enough to have recieved the compliment of being a hobbit by various friends and acquaintances because of my eating habits (sometimes five to six meals a day with snacks in between!)
If you come to any sosial gathering in my family, like a birthday, christmas, new years eve.. you'd clearly see the Hobbit feasting tradition is still living strong in Western Norway.
Oh, have mercy! No more food comments, please! That only reminds me of my family that's constantly trying to put as much food in me as I can't stand! (that's some trauma, right? hehe) So I must say that while my family is Hobbit-like, I'm definetly not! Who knows what sort of freak I am? Then again, who cares? ...

Propably an urukTongue Smilie as for me I am a ValaWink Smilie an Aratar nevertheless... an eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Aratar Very Evil Smilie MUahahahhahahaha
Not an Uruk!!! Have mercy, I was going for some sort of twisted Elf! *evily laughing in front of an overgrown, enraged and envious Vala; don't worry, Aule, you're not the one!*
i'm a strong follower of traditional celtic beliefs and magik. and in our beliefs, elves, faries, spirits and others are real and out there...... Happy Elf Smilie
Same here ! Happy Elf Smilie
Bugy would make a wonderful dark elf.

Me, I'm just your ordinary everyday witch who has yet to discover how to use her powers.

I always like to think of myself as the secret descendant of Turin, and that the line has reemerged... I think I read somewhere on here that the world is supposed to end somewhere aroupnd the 9th age.
I always like to think of myself as the secret descendant of Turin

In that case, you might consider changing your nick! Elf Winking Smilie

That is unless, Turin had a long beard and was five feet tall.

Or his parents put a "T" in front of his name instead of a "D" by mistake.
Naw, Durin vii may be one of those strange anomalies know as the Half-dwarven, whose mothers were always human, because in all the history of Middle-earth, there never was a man discerning enough to take a dwarven wife. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
because in all the history of Middle-earth, there never was a man discerning enough to take a dwarven wife.

Well that's hardly surprising, considering there was never even any Dwarven man discerning enough to take a Dwarven wife... no, they took shortish women from Esgaroth as wives instead. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
sorry to drag us back onto topic, but didnt Tolkien start to write a "sequal" to LotR in one of the home books, set in the middle of 4th age?? ( i am, as we speak [type???], slightly inebriated, so please tell me if this messag is utterly bwrong, and i will dlte it in the morn Smile Smilie )

Big Smile Smilie xxx
Yes he did, something about a dark cult amongst youngsters in the Fourth Age, but he quickly abandoned the idea since he believed it would offer nothing even remotely new or interesting.

He mentioned it in one of his Letters, but somebody else is going to have to post it here, if you want it.
He wrote about an aborted sequel in the letter* to Fr. Douglas Carter about 06 June 1972 in answering the question, "Did the Ents ever find the Entwives?" To which question he answered, "I do not know." I can not take the time today towards typing the full extent of that interesting letter.

* Letter #338 of The Letters of JRR Tolkien edited by Humphret Carpenter with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien.
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