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Thread: Why aren't there History of Middle-Earth books in my country?


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TomBombadillo
has made 2746 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 22nd January 2004 (02:06pm)
Tar-Aldarion began this thread with the following post

Quote:
I've only seen up to the Lost Road And Other Writings. Something weird going on in the Philippines?


TomBombadillo replied

Orc Grinning Smilie Probably not, cos I've wondered the same thing too about Belgium. Can find loads of Tolkien books here, but not HOME. Shame really... I was wondering if anyone knew if there are any real good atlasses of ME. You know, now that I've begun reading the Sil, I discovered that there are actually a lot of other continents in Arda, but I don't have any maps on 'em. Or are they in HOME?

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PlasticSquirrel
has made 3579 posts and is a Hobbit from Buckland and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Tolkien's Middle Earth is a very good buy. I got it ages ago, and recommended it to Grond, who now routinely recommends it to everyone he sees. But I beat him to it this time, GO ME!
Erm... Grond? Can you fill in the technical details like you usually do so well?
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Erm... Grond? Can you fill in the technical details like you usually do so well?
You mean like I posted under Confusion under Places? Okay here goes:
Quote:
The best map book is 'The Atlas of Middle Earth' (Revised Edition) by Karen Wynn Fonstad, Houghton Mifflin Co. 1991, 8" x 11" paperback, 210 pages, about $24 U.S., ISBN 0-618-12699-6

It contains detailed maps and explanatory text covering 'The Lord of the Rings', 'The Hobbit', and 'The Silmarillion'.
Besides covering the whole of Arda during the different time periods and the various regions historically, it also covers the detailed routes that Bilbo, and the Fellowship members followed on their way to The Lonely Mountain, Mount Doom, Minas Tirith, and beyond. Plus it has maps of the major battles that took place in the above three books. Finally those geographical maps one expects to find in an atlas, namely those showing distribution of vegetation, population, and languages followed by a comprehensive index of place names. Well worth the money in the eyes of this Tolkien fan. Cool Elf Smilie
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MelliotSandybanks
has made 1517 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
I am having a hard time finding things in book store, that I don't already own too. My suggestion is go to Barnes and Noble Online. If you buy 2 or more books you get free shipping and handling. They also have other languages besides english. You can also try Amazon.com. If you buy more than $25 USD worth of books, you get free shipping and handling. They too have other languages. Also try the PT store, or do a search for used books online. That is how I am getting most of my stuff.
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TomBombadillo
has made 2746 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Thanks a million Plastic/Grondy! Considering to buy one, if I can find it. It's just that I didn't wanna buy anything that's not worth the money. Big Smile Smilie Will be looking out for this one then...
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Airecristiel
has made 1001 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Oh! I'm gonna go and buy one right now! Or two! Or three! I really want all of Tolkiens books. So far I've got LotR, Bilbo, Unfinished Tales part 1. =)
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Delidia
has made 367 posts and is from and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
so far...ive got LOTR, the Hobbit, UT1 and UT2. but i havent read UT1 and UT2 yet..=( im getting there!!!
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Valedhelgwath
has made 4245 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
UT1 and UT2. but i havent read UT1 and UT2 yet..=( im getting there!!!
Are you sure you don't mean the Books of Lost Tales 1-2, Delidia, as opposed to Unfinished Tales, which is just one volume (unless it's recently been released as two).

I would recommend you read the Silmarillion before attempting either UT or LT. You will have great difficulty understanding much that is written in them otherwise.
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Aulë
has made 1232 posts and is a Dwarf from Moria and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Well I actually believed that the HOME series hadn’t been released in my country(dear old Sweden) but I was wrong it seemed....because I just found a place where they had the whole HOME series....and that is what my advice to other folks is: JUST KEEP ON LOOKING! THAT’S HOW I FOUND MY "MORGOTHS RING"!!!

Praise Eru for the wonderful men J.R.R. Tolkien and Christopher Tolkien!!!
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Aulë
has made 1232 posts and is a Dwarf from Moria and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Although they were not translated into swedish.....but that was great because I wanted the originals! The translaters are not always so very good.....translating the names of Meriadoc Brandybuck and alot of other characters! That I do not like!
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Amarië
has made 2785 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
But the nickname Merry doesn't make sense unless it is translated. At least not here in Norway where "merr" (female horse) ususally is used the same way as "b**ch... Angel Smilie

At least in Norwegian they have tried to use old norwegian words meaning the same as the old english words Tolkien used to give name to places and people. Don't know about those silly Sweeds though... *teasing* Wink Smilie

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Aulë
has made 1232 posts and is a Dwarf from Moria and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Hehehe maybe we should start a thread where we can share our norweigan and swedish jokesTongue Smilie

Well the translater, Britt something, really sucks..... she translated Shire to ?Fylke? and Hobbiton to Hobsala and Brandybucks to Vinbock.....well you get the point!
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
What I think is usually funny about literary translations is that the translators even feel the need to translate proper names at all. How ridiculous can you get!

Okay, names like Cinderella that are descriptive in their very nature and that description is part of the story, I can understand. Stil, why does Merry Brandybuck who lives in Buckland on the Brandywine River need to be changed at all?

(This coming from a one-language person who probably doesn't really appreciate the problem, I guess.) :elfembar:
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Amarië
has made 2785 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
What I think is usually funny about literary translations is that the translators even feel the need to translate proper names at all. How ridiculous can you get! ..... Stil, why does Merry Brandybuck who lives in Buckland on the Brandywine River need to be changed at all?
Because the Common Speech does not equal english! The Hobbits did not speak English. If you suddenly found yourself in the Shire you wouldn't understand a word they said. The hobbit names has a meaning, what Tolkien wrote was the translation from Common to English, so why shouldn't we translate it so they get a meaning in Norwegian or Polish or German? I honestly thought you knew this Grondy.

If a caracters name is Phillip Paulson we don't translate it to Fillip P’lsson. In children books we sometimes do, like the Harry Potter books where most of the names have a meaning and names like Hermione just sounds stupid and is not used in Norwegian. She has a common name in English, so she got a common Norwegian name (Hermine) which is close to the original one. The Norwegian translater has done a good job.

Quote:
This coming from a one-language person who probably doesn't really appreciate the problem, I guess
Yep..

Quote:
Hobbiton to Hobsala and Brandybucks to Vinbock
Now that's just silly. Hobbitun and Brennibukk is better. Hobsala... *giggling*
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Aulë
has made 1232 posts and is a Dwarf from Moria and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Yes that is what I mean! I mean Vin is wine.....WHERE THE **** DOES WINE COME IN, IN THE NAME BRANDYBUCK?!?!?!

Stupid translaters....Grondy you are right.....
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Valedhelgwath
has made 4245 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
WHERE DOES WINE COME IN, IN THE NAME BRANDYBUCK?
I guess because both wine and brandy are alcoholic beverages.
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Because the Common Speech does not equal english! The Hobbits did not speak English. If you suddenly found yourself in the Shire you wouldn't understand a word they said. The hobbit names has a meaning, what Tolkien wrote was the translation from Common to English, so why shouldn't we translate it so they get a meaning in Norwegian or Polish or German? I honestly thought you knew this Grondy.
:elfembar: Okay, I had forgotten the first sentence in Appendix F to RotK. So why do you get such poor translations? Good English speakers making the translations poorly to non-English or bad English speakers making the translations from the English poorly, or some of the above? Elf Confused Smilie
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Well to add more confusion:

Quote:
The Westron or Common Speech has been entirely translated into English equivalents. ’RotK Appendix E.
Quote:
The language represented in this history by English was the Westron or 'Common Speech' of the West-lands of Middle-earth in the Third Age. In the course of that age it had become the native language of nearly all the speaking-peoples (save the Elves) who dwelt within the bounds of the old kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor; that is along all the coasts from Umbar northward to the Bay of Forochel, and inland as far as the Misty Mountains and the Ephel D’ath. It also had spread north up the Anduin, occupying the lands west of the River and east of the mountains as far as the Galadden Fields.

... The Westron was a Mannish speech, though enriched and softened under Elvish influence. ...

The Hobbits of the Shire and of Bree had at this time, for probably a thousand years, adopted the Common Speech. They used it in their own manner freely and carelessly; though the more learned among them had still at their command a more formal language when occasion required.

There is no record of any language peculiar to Hobbits. In ancient days they seem always to have used the languages of Men near whom, or among whom, they lived. Thus they quickly adopted the Common Speech after they entered Eriador, and by the time of their settlement at Bree they had already begun to forget their former tongue. This was evidently a Mannish language of the upper Anduin, akin to that of the Rohirrim; though the southern Stoors appear to have adopted a language related to Dunlandish before they came north to the Shire. ’RotK Appendix F.
Now that I read it again, I almost considered reverting to my more provincial view with which Amari’ took umbrage. Still, I guess the cosmopolitan view better serves our world-wide membership and if readers can find the books translated where their native language is equivalent to Westron, the world will be a better place. Happy Elf Smilie
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Amarië
has made 2785 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Okay, I had forgotten the first sentence in Appendix F to RotK.
That's ok, I'm less grumpy today so I forgive you. It was the word "ridiculous" that got me fired up I think. I'm a lemming, tiny and cuddly-looking, but can explode at any minute, can't help it. Wink Smilie

Quote:
So why do you get such poor translations?
I think it has to do with imagination and creativity. It's an art to make good translations, a translator must be almost as good as the writer to catch the feel and meaning of the words. I think the Norwegain translator of LOTR did a good job, the sweedish one doesn't seem that good because she moves away from the original so much, but Hobbiton=Hobsala does show she spent time finding what they might have been called if it happend in Sweden. And Shire is a difficult one, it's called Hobsyssel with us but the correct translation of a shire IS fylke. I guess the Norw. trans. felt (like we do) that the Shire has more meaning than just a county, so he gave the county a name.

Baggins was at first Sekker (=Bags) but later became Lommelun (=cozy/sheltered pocket). And I'm glad, Sekker seems cold and unpersonal, Lommelun has a better feel about it.
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Amari’: I'm happier that your still not grumpy and I'm not so arrogant not to realize that I can be wrong, which quite often I am. I also know that a single word can put one's foot in one's mouth, but I never quite know which word that will be.

I try to learn from my mistakes and rather than withdrawing my head like a tortoise, I will probably continue making rash statements and take my lumps while trying to mollify those who take umbrage. I hope they will accept my apologies offered subsequent to my unfounded comments, regardless if they were innocently made or not, just as I try not to take their just criticism as personal.
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Amarië
has made 2785 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Just thought I should ad that in Norwegain Gandalf is written Gandalv just the way Tolkien really wanted the name written (and how it's written in the norse poem "Volusp’" where we also find all the dwarves). So in that case it's the English origianal that is "bad". Wink Smilie



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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Well said Amari’. If it had been written that way, I wouldn't always be mispronouncing Gandalv as Gandalf. Happy Elf Smilie
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Aulë
has made 1232 posts and is a Dwarf from Moria and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Well alv is elf in swedish.....so it kinda makes sense that name....Gandalv...because the men thought that he was of elvish origin right?
Well well happy new year!!!
Uh....ehh....well it isn’t new year right?Tongue Smilie
hahahha
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Tyrhael
has made 1187 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 5th October 2006 (11:16pm)
Tolkien wrote a letter on translation of LotR into other languages which is printed in LotR: A Reader's Companion. At first, he wrote he strongly objected to alteration of personal names or the word Hobbit or Orc, but later provided a glossary of words which could be translated (excluding Elvish names), with all the names NOT on that list to be left alone.
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