Namo began this thread with the following post



Virumor replied

I thought that an army of Gondor was underway, but they came too late to save Arnor from complete destruction.

If i'm not mistaken, E’rnur led that army and defeated the Witch-King of Angmar then; at this point, the Witch-King also challenged E’rnur for the first time but Glorfindel stopped E’rnur.

the last King of Arnor, Arvedui, then fled to the Forodwaith and drowned.

The realm of Arnor began to dwindle pretty early on its existance, never really recovering from Isildur's loss at the Battle of Gladden Fields in TA2.

What perhaps brought about the downfall, however, was when the tenth king, Earendur, died in TA 861. Arnor was then divided between his three sons, becoming Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur. This weakened the realms as over time there was petty bickering between them and the Dunedain of Cardolan and Rhudaur quickly began to dwindle.

In TA 1349 Arthedain claimed lordship over the whole of Arnor once more because neither Cardolan or Rhudaur had anyone from the line of Isildur left alive, but Rhudaur backed by Angmar contested this claim thus beginning the war mentioned in the posts above. Over the next fifty years, Angmar managed to sack much of Arnor creating a front near Weathertop and the Weather Hills. At this time, they also besieged Rivendell.

In the wars that followed, Arnor received aid from Cirdan of the Grey Havens, a force led by Glorfindel from Rivendell, and elves from Lorien who Elrond led over the Misty Mountains. They received no aid from Gondor, however, who at the time were suffering from civil war (the Kin-strife war).

Arnor held back Angmar for the best part of two hundred years while Gondor fought sporadic wars against Umbar, but in 1636 the Great Plague devasted both Arnor and Gondor.

In TA 1940 Arnor and Gondor renewed communications, and the king of Arnor wed the daughter of the Gondorian king. In 1974, however, Angmar defeated Arnor and their king fled North where he died. His line continued from then on in hiding, sheltered by Rivendell.

At this stage, the Godorian king, Earnur, brought a fleet to Lindon and defeated the Witch-king's army at Fornost, driving the witch-king out of the North. Having defeated the Angmarian army, and driven the witch-king back to Mordor, Eriador was left pretty much deserted, the Dunedain surviving only as the Rangers.

Hopefully this has helped you a little, Namo. I think the splitting of Arnor into the three realms was possibly the time that communications between Arnor and Gondor broke down, though it was possibly the Great Plague that eventually caused the most damage to both realms.

That part is supposition though, Namo. Looking through their histories doesn't really tell you specifically, but logic would suggest links would be maintained while bloodlines were still strongly connected. This sundering of Arnor would weaken any connections with Gondor.

The Druedain is the Sindarin term for the wild men who lived in the Forest of Brethil, and later those living in the Ered Nimrais. Basically the Woses.

The Edain are the Men of the three Houses who first entered Beleriand in the First Age and subsequently took service with the elves living there. The lore and knowledge they gained from the elves made them far more advanced than the other Men who later followed them in the Morgoth's service (the Easterlings).

The Dunedain are the Edain who at the beginning of the Second Age went to live in Numenor, and their descendants. After the sinking of Numenor, the Dunedain survived only in the Faithful (who founded Gondor and Arnor) and the Black Numenorians of Umbar.

This is only alleged - no records of men speak of this. And as I understand, there are just a few hobbit records stating this. Probably as they were granted the shire, so long as they came to arnors aid, they made it up to save their reputation.

Also you was talking about the disasters that happened to Arnor.What about Gondor?They were Dunedain there too. Weren't they? I think Personally, Gondor is a whole lot more richer and more powerful and not to mention having more Fame and Glory than Arnor. after the elven kingdoms I like Gondor better. But some disasters such as the Kin-Strife that happened could have been easily avoided. For, if Vindugiva married one of the Dunedain instead of the Northmen it would of simply not of happened. But some couldn't be avoided.

But when I said some couldn't be avoied I meant the great Plague of Gondor around 1635-1640T.A. or something like that. It killed King Telluminatar and his children and also killed quite alot of people, especially in Osgiliath and that on a map of Osgiliath, 20years after the plague you can see the damage. It is on Osgiliath 1660 T.A. Once again my Laptop doesn't wnt me to make a link here

Grondy fixed the url and made the link.

Thanks Grondy, thanks for making a link here I really appreciate it.

Doubt is allowed here. AFAIK there is not many clues of which degree the valar were worshipped by the Edain. In Nunenor there was a place dedicated to Illuvatar who is not a Valar btw. Maybe it was Tolkien's intention to have men more oriented to monotheism (just my 2 cents)

Personally I favour the idear of the Valar being kind of 'Greek gods' but working in harmony. They each have there own speicality of power that brings together a collective unison.
Although in later Ages the Valar were governers you are forgetting that they built the world as it was later perceived. They created the Flowers, Plants, animals and even mountains and oceans. This to me seems to be the work of Gods rather than Angels which are messengers.

The Maiar I think are more like Angels. They are the servents of the Gods and have little to do with the grand making of Arda.

As we can see by the quote you provided Men have often called them Gods. Nowhere else in Tolkien's world are anything else called Gods. Therefore the Valar are the only thing titled as Gods, thus in Ea they are the Gods if you see what I mean.
Just like the Istari are often called Wizards. Now we say that they are not really true wizards but are Maiar. However no other beings are called Wizards in Arda therefore they are the wizards.

What I am trying to say is don't try and compare these things with our own perception of them. If Men call Valar Gods then they are Gods to men. Just becuase the Valar does not meet our 'assessment' of a God is irrelevent. In Tolkien's myth, in the lore of men, a God is one of the Rulers of Ea. To us they would be more similar to Angels but our world and our classifications are irrelevent. Thus also applies with Wizards. To men the Istari are Wizards. Therefore the beings that came over from Valinor to aid them against Sauron and have magical powers are Wizards to men. Just becuase our description of a Wizard is an old men who can turn a hat into a bat it does not warrent trying to apply the same into Arda. It is a complete world unto itself.

Sorry, two more things I wanted to mention:

(1) The Valar are not omniscient, omnipotent, nor omnipresent. They are fallible, they can make mistakes, and they definitely do not know everything. In several places Tolkien explicitly says "The Valar do not know" this-or-that (most often involving the mind or the will of Il’vatar in some matter).

(2) In your post you say that just because Men called the Valar "gods", that makes them so. But when the N’menorians came to Middle-Earth, the lesser men there also called THEM "gods", so does that somehow make the N’menorians into gods?

(from the Akallab’th)

Well, first of all, let me say that I had a really good laugh reading your last paragraph! Just picturing that whole scenario, and then "Ha! You're not a god!" Yeah I definitely see your point with that one -- if I was on the receiving end of such a god-like visitation, I don't suppose I would be questioning their divinity!

But -- I finally found what I was looking for (sort of). I can't find a direct transcript, but apparently Tolkien addresses the question "Were the Valar gods?" in LETTERS, #154 & #286. So if anyone out there reading this thread has a copy of "Letters" handy, please let us know what Tolkien says in his own words.

In Letter #154 (to Naomi Mitchison 25 September 1954) :

In Letter #286 (to AE Couchman 27 April 1966)
The above two letters are from The Letters of JRR Tolkien edited by Humphrey Carpenter with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien.

Agreed.

We can conclude that there were no 'Gods' in Tolkien's myth in what terms we would classify them. However they are Ea's closest equivilent to our own perception of them and thus Men call them Gods becuase they are the only thing they have that relates to a God.
If the Men of Middle-eath were to hear our view of a God they would probably compare it to the Valar and say "Well your 'God' isn't really a God just something God like"

Let everyone choose their own gods, for pity's sake.

Look at the Aztecs, for instance... they thought 300 beardy, ugly men from Spain, clad in heavy armour and sitting on war horses were gods.

At least, the ones that didn't try to eat them, did.

Soon in billions of years time the Millky way would collide with another galaxy called the Andromeda.Andromeda is just like our galxy, except larger. This galaxy is approaching us at the speed of 140miles persecond.Pretty fast hey.I wonder are so many stars and Nebulae as well as galaxies are all approching us or receding from us.I wonder why Varda's creations went crazy.This also the same as Barnard's star approching us at 50mph.The Milky way and Andromeda are attracted to eachother , just like two lovers.

Hey there's a really neat animation of it here, and another good article here.

I really like your neat animation, Meneldur Elentrimo, It was really flash. Using Miruvor's logic is that the Persus Cluster of galaxies would get jealous and will come after us. But the Milky Way and the Andromeda are going towards the Persus cluster at 300,000miles per second pretty fast isn't it? It is called The Great Attractor .Hereis another link,The Great Wall of Galaxies.Have a look at the two URLs the're pretty cool,huh?

Yes?