Thread: The sons of Denethor
Per, you're right! Denethor would never deny a wish of his favorite son!
Well Faramir is a much better son then Boromir.... 
Boromir had to be the son who went to Rivendell because Faramir wouldn't have tried to take the ring from Frodo, so Frodo wouldn't have run off to Mordor by himself (or with only Sam), so the rest of the Fellowship would have gone with Frodo, so Gollum wouldn't have joined forces with them, so that if they didn't all get killed before finding the Crack of Doom, Gollum wouldn't have been there to dispose of the ring, so Sauron would have taken the ring from Frodo and then only Sauron would have lived happily ever after.
Thus, Boromir had to be the son who went to Rivendell.
Thus, Boromir had to be the son who went to Rivendell.
Ditto Grondy on this one...
At the end of the day it was all down to the hand of Eru.
At the end of the day it was all down to the hand of Eru.
Yes Eru foresaw it all!!!
Quote:
Aw, Grondy! But what if you don't really believe in Eru? Or if you do, Eru or not, destiny is in one's own hands?? In that case, I want a more specific answer than : it happened because it happened, or it happened because Eru said so.
More specific than fate or Eru? Well not being in Tolkien's head when he wrote it, all I can really say is that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring by some higher concept. Consider Gandalf's speech with Frodo in 'The Shadow of the Past' found in the FotR. from which I have lifted these pertinent excerpts: Aw, Grondy! But what if you don't really believe in Eru? Or if you do, Eru or not, destiny is in one's own hands?? In that case, I want a more specific answer than : it happened because it happened, or it happened because Eru said so.
Quote:
'A Ring of Power looks after itself Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. ... It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.'
'What, just in time to meet Bilbo?' said Frodo. 'Wouldn't an Orc have suited it better?'
'It is no laughing matter,' said Gandalf. 'Not for you. It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo's arrival just at that time, and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark.
'There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor D’agol, and he was murdered, and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!
'Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought.'
(The bold was mine.)'A Ring of Power looks after itself Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. ... It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.'
'What, just in time to meet Bilbo?' said Frodo. 'Wouldn't an Orc have suited it better?'
'It is no laughing matter,' said Gandalf. 'Not for you. It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo's arrival just at that time, and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark.
'There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor D’agol, and he was murdered, and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!
'Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought.'
To me and many others, that something else was:
what led Gildor to the hobbits their first night out from Bag End;
what led Farmer Maggot to give them the ride to the Buckleburry Ferry;
what led Tom Bombadil to be passing Old Man Willow at the most opportune time;
what led to Tom Bombadil presenting the hobbits with the Blades of Westerness (so Merry could hinder the Nazg’l Lord and Glorfindel's earlier prophesy become fulfilled);
what led Strider to be waiting in the Prancing Pony;
what led Glorfindel to just happen by with Asfaloth so Frodo could outrun the Black Riders at the Ford of Bruinen;
what caused the parties that would make up the Fellowship to just happen to arrive at Rivendell after long journeys, in time for Elrond's Council;
what caused E’mer to be in the field without leave from his King so he could waylay the Orcs allowing Merry and Pippin to escape in to Fangorn;
what led Treebeard to happen by so they could give him the info about Saruman so the Ents threw-down Isengard;
what led Pippin rather than Gandalf to pick up the Palantir, thus saving Gandalf from revealing his presence prematurely;
what allowed Frodo and Sam to tame Sm’agol;
what led Faramir to just happen to meet them in Ithilien;
etc., etc., etc.
These just could not have been coincidences, fate maybe, but we think it was the work of that something else, probably Eru working behind the scenes to counter the evil of the Ring, which if left to the Valar would have resulted in the total destruction of Middle-earth, which is what happened to Beleriand when the Valar last threw-down Morgoth, Sauron's predecessor.
Gandalf was the surrogate of the Valar, but Gandalf could not do it on his own, so Eru, not wanting the Valar to ruin their workmanship, and knowing the Elves were too few and that men were not strong enough to withstand Sauron, decided to lend a helping hand with a nudge here and there to get the job done.
I rest my case.
Quote:
I suppose I just wanted a more detailed explanation because I'm not sure whether I believe in a fate/destiny which is determined by a devine being or achieving one's own fate/destiny by one's own actions.
I suppose I just wanted a more detailed explanation because I'm not sure whether I believe in a fate/destiny which is determined by a devine being or achieving one's own fate/destiny by one's own actions.
From the Silmarillion, though, we know that Eru did determine certain fates. Before the world was created the Ainur sang the First Great Music. It was from this music that the world came into being, and the history of the world (everything occurring in it from beginning to end) was preordained from what had been played in that music.
When Melkor and his followers rebelled and began making their own music in discord with the others, Eru wove his own themes into this discord to bend that theme back to how it should have been. One of these themes which Eru introduced (with no assistance from any of the Ainur) was the creation of the Children of Eru, the Elves and Men. The former in particular were said to be tied very strongly to the fate of Ea, and so their fates were very preordained, while part of the Gift of Men was that they were free to make their own choices outside the fate of Ea. Saying that, however, I believe the fates of many Men were guided by Eru to ensure certain events did occur.
