Then what caused gurlie to be injured and needing royal strenght healing powers to survive?

The Nazgul Lord's dying wail didn't go up until after Eowyn had thrust her sword between its eyes shattering the blade in the process. But, Merry's 'Blade of Westernesse' was crucial in the downfall of the Nazgul Lord, aka the Witch-King of Angmar, for with it Merry was able to cripple his enemy allowing time for E’wyn to strike her mortal blow.

Of course, had Tolkien told us that the Nazgul Lord had in fact an 'Achilles knee', I might think otherwise.

True to all that. When Glorfindel said "Wk not fall by mans hand" and what not, I think that the little more magic that helped Merry was that the woman he respected, her life was in danger, and I think that when he had good intentions with the Westernesse blade, it might of had a more fatal effect.
~Celebrimbor

Ok, very nice discussion so far. But I have some questions..



Virumor, I am very curious now. Where have you read about these blades from Westernesse? Did you get your information from the history of Middle Earth series? I am very curious on what kinda spells and who made them, and what made them so special. I know that they ended up at Barrow Downs, but I would like to know more about it besides that Merry's and Pippin's swords came from Westernesse and had special powers... so any valid reference ... I would really appreciate it.



The N’menoreans were skilled craftsmen as well. Eonwe educated them. Besides the Noldor and the Dwarves, N’menoreans were skilled as well. I read that either in the Silmarillion or Sauron Defeated.



That is an interesting thought Vee. But remember Eowyn was not quite a happy puppy when she killed the Witch King. I thing the gift of life was the last thing on her mind when she trusted that sword. But then Faramir reminded her of her special gift



Maiar or Istari for that matter are forbidden to interfere in these matters. Gandalf’s purpose was stated as the following:

"...but not until the time came for him [Mithrandir/Gandalf] to depart was it
known that he had long guarded the Red Ring of Fire. At the first, that Ring
had been entrusted to Cirdan, Lord of the Havens; but he surrendered it to
Mithrandir, for he knew whence he came and whither at last he would return.

'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be
heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this
is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the
valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the
Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last
ship sails. Then I shall await thee.'"

The Silmarillion - p.304



I am still confused by this one. If there is one thing that is just not either Eowyn and Merry... that is puppets controlled by "Eru". Eowyn wants to break free from the Golden Cage and does as she pleases: off to fight for her lord, her country and the good cause. Merry wants to be with his friends and fight for them wherever he can. So where your idea of Puppets come from...

They acted from free will and free will only.

Now yeah a lot has been said already. I think with man/men is meant the Edain. The moment Merry struck as periannath (hobbit), the spell or whatever the Witch king protected was broken. Eowyn finished him off. There are so many ways you can look at it. Eowyn, being a female, adds nicely to the mix. A nice combination I would say.

My point exactly.

Earlier in the thread a lot of people talked about Merry and Eowyn "fulfilling their destiny" and "doing what they was predestined to do". To me that just didn't seem right. I want free will, not determinism!

A problem occurs when we want the individuals to have free will, but still want an almighty all-knowing god, Eru. I have posted a possible solution in 3-4 threads on roughly the same theme, without making too many converts though.

Eru isn't a theory in Tolkien Middle Earth, he is a fact. Doesn't matter what we belive or don't belive in the real world, Eru excists because Tolkien wrote that he does.

I agree on the plan a,b,c,d,e etc idea. I have partially understood Grevs solutions, but it is quite complicated so I'm sticking to what my poor little brain can comprehend.

Tolkien's world depends on Eru, without Eru his world wouldn't have been created. Read 'Ainulindal’' in The Silmarillion. This is fact in Tolkien's world and our world's atheists and their non-belief in God has no bearing on the subject.

That said, one may debate as to whether Eru is an active god or not, without violating our rules against religious discussion as long as we keep it in Tolkien's world and not our own.

Hmmmm.... Gandalf sent to help, died and was resurrected...... seems familiar.

Does the fact that Iluvatar knew what would happen negate free will? Could it be the extreme power of the supreme creator would give him the knowledge of what was to happen once he had set things in motion without him writing a script?

Iluvatar did help at least once........ I can only think of the one instance at the moment. He helped because he was asked to by Manwe. I get the feeling that Illuvatar, having made the world and set it all in motion, was happy to set the Valar there to 'manage' things. They were 'bounded in the world' to be within it for ever.


The Silmarillion - Akallabeth

Seems he had set the Valar a task and like any responsible parent he was prepared to let them fend for themselves, knowing that they would ask for help should they need it.

---------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Manwe upon the Mountain

- everyt time I see this phrase I think of Manuel and His Music of the Mountains........ old latin american band.... Grondy might remember them. Although wasn't 'Manuel' someone else?

As Gandalf the White, yes, but the deeds he did as Gandalf the Grey.. he did that on request of the Valar. You know, that makes me wonder... did the Valar scream for help when Gandalf plunhed into the darkness of Moria? Did they ask Illuvatar to intervene and bring back Gandalf? *whispers: this has actually nothing to do with the Witchking does it... but I like this discussion*



Interesting thought. I don't think so actually (the negating of free will), he moulded the Edain and gave them the things they needed for their purpose. I see Illuvatar more as a laid back power that be. But then Melkor came along and later Sauron.. I do believe that Illuvatar trusted the Edain enough to defeat the dark lord. Yes. That is why I have such difficulty in believing the whole Eru theory. It sounds so easy.. you know, the easy way out. Not Tolkien style because in his story there is never an easy way out. Like if the deeds the indivuals did, do did not happen because Eru did it. Mmm a lot of did in that sentence.



Numenor is a good example. But yes I completely agree to your manage theory. The Valar could not manage Numenor, so Illuvatar had to intervene. Somehow he did not interfere with the War of the Ring. IMHO ofcourse. The Istari involved were instructed not to intervene, guidance yes, but no intervention.

This whole discussion makes me wanna run to my books and read the letters of Tolkien, the Silmarillion all over again

So do I. Let us continue the discussion in here: Eru's thoughts (Ainur). There are others theads about good/evil and free will too somewhere.

The Witch King would be VERY grumpy if the Valar stole his thread

Banakil 'halfling, hobbit' (Appendix F) might point to a Westron form for 'man', considering both Banaz’r 'Half-wise' and tarkil (borrowed from Elvish it would seem, if so).





Right, and we can also note a couple of things: first, capitalization hardly matters since Glorfindel delivered a spoken prophecy; and second, Tolkien has characters within the tale include Merry and Eowyn with respect to the prophecy (Merry also was not a Man in the following, from a note in The Return of the King).

'For her shield arm was broken by the mace of the Witch-King; but he was brought to nothing, and thus the words of Glorfindel long before to King E’rnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-King would not fall by the hand of man. For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halfling out of a far country,...'

Whatever language Glorfindel delivered his prophecy in, or whatever word he used in his prediction, people within the tale (who spoke no English of course) still considered the prophecy fulfilled by either a female or a Halfling -- not just Modern English speakers who know that the spoken word man can be ambiguous.

It seems Glorfindel mentioning "Not by the hand of a man will he fall" made the Witch-King cocky and made him believe he was invulnerable; for indeed he could not fathom that a woman'd be able to wield any deadly weapon other than her tongue.

Provided, of course, that the Witch-King actually heard what Glorfindel had been saying to E’rnur.

How to Kill a Witch-King-turned-Lord-of-the-Nine-Nazgul:

0) Prepare the peoples of middle-earth for the witch-king's demise by sending a prophetic foretelling to a certain Elf (this step can be omitted if necessary, but it adds an interesting mix of "was it free will or wasn't it?" to the dish. Those who are allergic to omniscient god-like figures should omit this step).

1) Infuse one blade with the bitter will to harm the Witch-King (among other spells and very good craftsmanship) using the skills and wills of a people who fought for life and country against the Witch-King before he turned Nazgul. (This is an essential ingredient and cannot be omitted: to do so would ruin the entire dish).

2) Set this blade to aging (like good cheese or wine) in a cool dark place.

3) Create a race of hobbits who are distinct from the race of men, though related. Stir their gene pool such that a certain hobbit, related to certain other hobbits of interest, is given a personality which tends towards impetuous and courageous acts (given the right circumstances...)

4) Send Istari to get all manner of quests going against dark lords, dragons, etc., in middle-earth. Make sure the Istari who will turn into Gandalf is one of them.

5) Infuse a woman of the Rohirrim with a fighting spirit. Place her in a home with an kingly uncle who is slowly being bent to the will of an Istari-gone-bad. Let stand for quite a few years, occasionally stirring in the chivalry of men who think women should stay at home during a skirmish. Simmer together with a worm-tongued, rather unattractive man who wants her. Cover and set aside.

6) Have an enigma rescue aforementioned blade from step 1 (along with some of said enigma's hobbit-friends, including the hobbits from step 3) from said cool dark place. Have this enigma remove any evil barrow-wight spells the blade or the hobbits may have acquired with dispelling good humor and child-like rhymes and sunshine. (Either the rhymes or the sunshine can be omitted if necessary, but not both. Otherwise the hobbit will be swallowed up by the spells of the barrow-wight and the whole flavour of the dish will be lost). Couple the blade with aforementioned hobbit.

7) Send hobbit (along with protective company) on a long journey, with certain life-threatening but not life-taking dangers along the way. (This will act as an emulsifier, to help the hobbit and the blade to settle with one another, and the blade will begin to become an extension of the hobbit. This is an essential ingredient, because hobbits and blades do not normally mix like this).

8) If hobbit and blade should separate during the journey, use any of the aforementioned company to re-connect them.

9) Uncover the Rohirrim from step 5. Remove and discard the worm-tongued man along with influence of Istarit-gone-bad. Pour the hobbit-and-blade mixture into the Rohirrim mixture, cover again and set aside to wait for it to rise.

10) Set the occasion to which the mixture in step 9 will rise, by stirring up the Witch-King in some capacity of attack. It doesn't much matter who or what is attacked, except that it be close enough to Rohan to call the men of Rohan to arms against it.

11) Sit back and watch the whole thing unfold before your eyes. If done properly, the hobbit-and-blade will bond with the woman of Rohan, and both will rise to the top in a blaze of glory.

12) Optional: glaze hobbit and woman of Rohan with athelas administered by the hands of a long-lost heir to an ancient Kingdom. If thus glazed, they will be preserved for use in other dishes after the killing is complete. If left unglazed, hobbit and woman-of-Rohan can be discarded shortly after the deed is done.

The easiest way to defeat the Witch King is simply to destroy the Ring.

Let's blow this thing and go home!

Generally speaking, knowing the 'future' (a word like 'future' is inaccurate in describing the state of a being outside time) isn't necessarily equivalent to willing something to happen -- especially in only one certain way. 

It's kind of like knowing the contents of a tale 'after' having let the characters 'write' things in the story (by acts of free will) -- within certain confines set up by the Author of course. But again the Author here is outside time, so all things in the book are 'now' to him, while the characters within the story see time unfolding as past, present, future. 

My stance on this matter involves some admittedly 'problematic' statements (a couple of Gandalf's mainly), but I think the Nine had faded invisible bodies which could be harmed or killed, and in Tolkien's world 'killing' is the separation of body and spirit by harming the body 'too much'.

In my opinion the wraiths were not dead but the Rings had extended their lives beyond 'true living', so they were 'not living' in a sense too, at least not like regular beings (noting Gandalf's statement to Frodo early on in The Fellowship of the Ring about the rings).

They would also seem like Wraiths, but were not exactly the same as the Dead -- spirits bound to Middle-earth due to their oath breaking.

 

Thus Eowyn's strike killed the body. She slew the Nazgul-lord with Merry's aid -- and the fate of the Witch-king's spirit at this point, if what Gandalf says earlier about Sauron and the Nine indicates that they can be slain but return, is made a non-issue because the One was soon enough destroyed in any case.

The characters arguably did not know everything there was to know about how it all worked. If Frodo wrote the tale with help, how did the good guys really know what was going on with the Ringwraiths after the waters rose against them for instance? Gandalf seemed to know they would return because their Master still had not fallen; and they did, but what really happened to them in the flood?

Hard to know for sure. Then later Gandalf implies (to Legolas) that one cannot slay the flying Wraith with arrows -- why not? Or what does he mean by 'slay' here, exactly? in the sense that it could never return?  

If so, still one would think it would have been good to slay the flying wraith with an arrow, no matter that it could return as long as Sauron lived -- if that was the meaning of Gandalf's statement in any event. It was certainly good that the Nazgul-lord was killed later!

 

I'm not sure Tolkien ever bothered to work it all out -- arguably 'what happened' as far as the characters in the tale could know, was the important thing in any case.

Thankyou. That Eowyn was the one in my mind was foreordained and could not be otherwise, but the 'how' has puzzled and frustrated me from the beginning. I remember reading in the Letters that our professor wished, he very much wished he could live many more years and if he had and had some money and a little leisure I think he would have continued to modify and clarify many points. That he was not allowed that time is a bit depressing, but then, as he must have realized his'real Illuvatar had it turn out exactly like that.'

Evil creating by twisting existing creations is a common theme in fantasy. That's how Morgoth created the Orcs, for instance. Or how the Uruk-hai were created.