Some interesting points were raised in this thread. I'll just add something after three years (!). I notice some confusing of the book with the movies; for instance, there is no suggestion in the book that the blizzard was caused by Saruman. More importantly, Saruman didn't "defeat" Gandalf at Orthanc --that was all Peter Jackson. In fact, there was never a "fight" between wizards in the book.

Yes, I "imagine" I imagined it that way, too, on first reading it at age 17 (it was so long ago, I don't remember! ), but here, in Gandalf's words, is the end of the encounter: ' " The third choice is to stay here, until the end". ' "Until what end"? ' "Until you reveal to me where the One may be found. I may find means to persuade you. Or until it is found in your despite, and the Ruler has time to turn to lighter matters: to devise, say a fitting reward for the hindrance and insolence of Gandalf the Grey". ' "That may not prove to be one of the lighter matters," said I. He laughed at me, for my words were empty, and he knew it. 'They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc . . .' Now, we may WANT there to be a fight of some kind, but as the text stands, there is no hint of one. And I believe this was Tolkien's intention; "Wizards" (a term he came to regret) was, as you no doubt know, his translation of Istari, having the same meaning as our angeloi: "messenger" . Much as we might like it, they were not, I believe, intended to be D&D-type "wizards", but messengers, sent to bring help and encouragement to the people of Middle Earth, in their resistance to the Shadow. They had "powers" of a sort, but these were severely limited, by the will of the Valar. There's no indication of the kind of "battle of the Wizards" portrayed in the movies. Even the greater power displayed by Gandalf, later in the story, were given to him only after he died and was sent back, in order for him to make his last supreme effort against Sauron.

Hmm you should just have to hit Enter to break it into a new paragraph?

Thank you for providing that paragraph for reference, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment on how Tolkien meant the Istari to be viewed. You certainly aren't wrong. I'm not denying a bit of stretching is needed, but I don't "imagine" I imagined anything, I very clearly remember laying in bed that night reading about this encounter and thinking "how would he just take him?" In fact I'm pretty sure it's because I was hoping they were more DnD like and wanted it to happen. I was 12, I didn't fully appreciate the subtleties of Tolkien just yet. I just wanted a wizard battle. And I didn't think one up so much as assumed something happened between the two of them that allowed Saruman to overtake and imprison him, even if it was just holding in place or something. That something is key though. PJ went a little crazy with it.

Of course it's not directly hinted at, that's not Tolkien's style. But it is hinted that Saruman isn't against using violence: giving Gandalf ultimatums, the last of which involves imprisonment, threatning him with things like "to devise, say a fitting reward for the hindrance and insolence of Gandalf the Grey," implies he has no problem (and in fact intends to) harming Gandalf. And when one Valar chosen Istari threatens to harm another, I'd imagine the one being threatened would do something.

Of course if they didn't Middle Earth is where that would be. It absolutely is possible Gandalf went with his hands up to the top of Orthanc. That's the great thing about Tolkien, there really isn't one right answer here. To be honest the non-violent finish is more than likely, but it doesn't have to be the only one.....and PJ went with it. You love it or you don't. I don't think wizards should have crazy duels in Middle Earth, but I do think they would have struggles of powers unknown to men. It's true Tolkien regretted the use of wizards, but he regretted a lot of things, so if you go with all of his regrets, pretty much all of his work is up for interpretation of any kind....but to be honest this is something I've always been adamant about, keeping the regrets separate from the published works. I know some disagree but, to each their own!

But ok sure, let's mix things up a bit, let's say that 'is' the case. Saruman called up some orcs and they handcuffed ol' Mithrandir and locked him up atop a tower. In a purist discussion of the strongest wizard, if the battle of the Istari wasn't fought with fire and lightning but instead with words, and Saruman convinced Gandalf to be escorted to the top of Orthanc by orcs...then that is still a battle right there, a battle of wits that Saruman won.

There needs to be separate Strongest Wizard film/novel threads to keep things simple...though in both cases I think Gandalf the White would beat Saruman the White

In the "love it or don't" debate, you'll have to put me in the "Don't" column. In fact, Tolkien's comments on the proposed 1950's movie become hilarious in light of the movies that were made: "Aragorn is always whipping out his sword", or "Z has a preference for fights". It's almost as if PJ read Tolkien's criticisms and said "Hey -- those are all great ideas!". But that debate has been beaten to death, so there's no point in going over it again. If someone likes the movies, fine; if they prefer the movies,well. . . .I don't know what to say. I really only take issue with confusing the two. You're quite justified in being leery of bringing Tolkien's ssecond thoughts into the discussion, but, really, .what else have we fanatics to reach for, to fill in the gaps? One thing I'll mention concerning the "colors": there has been much speculation about their origins and significance over the years, including some ingenious attempts to link them with the wizards' Valar "sponsors". My own impression was that in this,as in so much else, Tolkien adapted parts of his own upbringing in the Catholic Church-- in this case, the colors of the various orders. The close resemblance of Radagast to St. Francis is clear enough. And the Dominicans, with their white habit, were always considered an "intellectual" order. I'm not sure it goes further than that, although Saruman's hubristic color change, and disdain for the purity of white, may also contain an element of demonic parody of Joseph's "coat of many colors". As far as the "battle" goes, you're right-- Gandalf bested Saruman.

Your feelings about the movies were pretty clear from the start  But honestly I completely understand where you are coming from and agree with MUCH of what you say. I definitely don't prefer the movies though I do enjoy them...trust me I cringed at plenty of scenes. But, somehow I'm able to over look them and enjoy it for what it is xD I also really appreciate the fact that it brought Tolkien to a much wider audience and made it "cool" to like fantasy. They also aren't half bad if looking at it completely objectively from a cinematic standpoint...It is 'some' testament that Return of the King still holds countless box office records, including most best picture awards recieved (even though I think Fellowship is the best one). But you're right it isn't even a convo worth having anymore lol, just do a quick search and you'll find it 100 times on here

...Though just to be clear this isn't including The Hobbit series which is a total travesty to the Tolkien name. Martin Freeman was perfect as Bilbo, everything else was a disgrace.

And fyi I LOVE talking about Tolkien's second hand thoughts, as disappointing as I find some of them...I just think it's better to keep them separate if the films are involved too, it can get messy!

Say, is it OK to mention other forums here? I recently joined The Tolkien Forum. Over there, I'm the "Squint-eyed Southerner". : )

Also "For me personally, one important effect was that they made it possible to bring a number of older studies back into print"  I could not agree more. The sad truth is that now, almost 20 years later, without those films it is entirely possibly Tolkien would have faded into the "classics," along with Tom Sawyer, Romeo and Juliet, and Homer...and nobody reads the classics anymore (sad, but true). But it kept going strong, and just as it's starting to fade away again, this Amazon series is announced. I'm quite curious to see what happens next...

I don't think the Istar were sent with a defacto leader. Rather each had his own misson and purpose. It was only when the White Council was formed that a leader was chosen. The 'strenght' of the wizards might have been something subjective as well as Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be the head even though he was 'The Grey' back then.

As for the fight in the movie, I don't think it would actually have come down to a real fight as after all, Gandalf was in Saruman's 'house' and bar their powers, he had a host of his servants at hand. I don't think even Gandalf would have dared to run the gauntlet against all of them.

Not holding my breath, but fingers crossed. (No wonder I can't get anything done!)