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Thread: Dwarves in Lord of the Rings

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To bring this thread back (slightly) towards dwarves did anyone else find the portrayal of Moria and Gimli''s words concerning it confusing and a bit of a mess. From speaking to friends who saw the film but have not read the book they got the impression from Gimli that Moria was a Dwarf city, full of dwarfs and it must have been recently destroyed, but were then confused that visually it was clearly an ancient ruin. This seems to stem from Gimli implying he expects to find Balin there and roast beef and ale without the film mentioning that Balin's was an expedition to an already long abandoned city. This is doubly a shame in light of the Hobbit movie. How hard would have been to insert a line such as the one in Bakshis film "Many years ago my cousin Balin led a company of dwarves there. There has been no word from them in all that time."
I would say that maybe in the movie timeline Balin had led his expedition to Moria more recently than in the book timeline ... except the bodies they found were clearly in an advanced state of decomposing. :? Agreed about slipping that line in there.
Fair Point actually. Mind you, it didn't really make much difference to most people who hadn't read the books though. But a line or two about it wouldn't have been amiss.

I just wanted to throw in here...there was some discussion about the ultimate fate of dwarves and their part in the cosmic plan.

Remember that Aulie made them *after* the music of the Ainur, but before the awakening of elves and men. Eru allowed them free will, but would not suffer them to awaken before the two kindreds. So they are not part of the original cosmic plan. Tolkien explicitly said that no-one knows their fate (not saying much since he was cagey about men's fate as well).

The beauty of Tolkien's cosmology derives from the tantalizing mix between purpose and ambiguity. He deliberately erased all references to religion to preserve this ambiguity in LoTR, while leaving it clear that there was purpose. Knowing that the dwarves have some deep beliefs in how they fit in (7 reincarnations of Durin) is good enough. Being too precise would ruin the mystery.
I agree about the lack of preciseness, especially with regards to the older myths of the First Age. Myths and histories in the real world are not complete - there are gaps and contradictions - and such is also the case with Tolkien's legendarium. I think this is to its benefit. <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />
Durin, in the stories the Dwarves were not created by 'Eru'(Illuvatar,the creator)but by Aule, the smith of the Vala. They were supposed to be destroyed because they were created outside the great plan of the Creator however when it was seen they were capable of fear & thought they were essentially let off but it was decreed that they would not be 'born' before the Elves who were the 'Firstborn' but would essentially usurp mankind as the secondborn-although probably 'born' at exactly the same time they were a more complex & civilised people than Man when they first encountered the Elves which leads to them becoming the 'secondborn'. Consequently, like the Hobbits, their fate is not wholly known within the fates of the world.
Remember that at no point is the creation of the Hobbits mentioned by Tolkien at all & if anyone knows otherwise please do tell!!!
In the second & third ages,apart from the war of the Dwarves & Orcs, the only kindred of the Dwarves that plays a part in the history of the west after the cities of Nogrod & Belegost are destroyed by the sea at the end of the First Age is the Line Of Durin which is originally located in Khazad-Dum later to be known as Moria.
It is mentioned that part of the reason Thorin wanted to go back to the Lonely Mountain was to try & find the Ring Of Power which he believed had been left there,unbeknown to him was that the ring was always in the keeping of his father,Thrain, & that the ring was taken from Thrain 'with great torment' when he was a prisoner in the dungeons of the Necromancer
But as for their part in the War of the Ring,they play a massive role,just not directly or in the main story. Their previous war with the Orcs albeit over 200 years earlier virtually exterminated the Orcs of both the Grey & the Misty Mountains although Dwarven losses were also high but all the Dwarven Hosts had been gathered from all the Seven Kindreds from all across Middle Earth. So the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were much weaker circa the War of the Ring but the Dwarven hosts had returned home principally to the East from what we can gather..... But the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain are hard pressed as Sauron sends a formidable host against them which is defeated at the loss of Dain Ironfoot who fell before the doors, weilding his Mattock as fiercely as he did when he earned his name at the Battle of Azanulbizar outside the doors of Moria.
Of course the Dwarves only get a token mention in the film,apart from Gimli obviously, who is noticably different to the books!! But in defence of Peter Jackson, who sometimes murders the story (an Elven company under Haldir did not rock up at Helms Deep,etc) it is a huge story which,if done faithfully to the books which I'd prefer, would possibly not have bank-rolled such takings & he is in the business of making money as well as entertaining!
But be happy that the Dwarves do contribute very much & also when Aragorn is crowned the Dwarves also repair the gates of Minas Tirith.
And agreed, why oh why did we have Arwen leading the company when we should have had Glorfindel, a great Elf Lord from across the Sundering Seas!
RE: the creation oh Hobbits,

Tolkien made it clear in the Prologue to LotR that hobbits were a variant branch of the race of men. Therefore I think it can be assumed that they were created at the same time as men.
In most things I'm a Fundamentalist Purist - but I actually thought Arwen in place of Glorfindel was cool... Yes, the first couple of scenes with her were a bit clumsy and cliched (not into her as Warrior Maid, no way!), but the later scenes with her in them....sigh.... Call me a romantic! And PJ did rescue her from the Appendixes! Pure chivalry I'd call that! It was perhaps PJ's only true service as far as add-ons go. (Glorfindel wasn't [i:2gyvc9zh]that[/i:2gyvc9zh] vital surely :oops: . )
I understand the film arguements for replacing Glorfindel with Arwen it just bugs me that it ignores common sense and likeliness within the story's own context. Elrond would not have sent his only daughter out against the Nazgul for the very good reason they would kill her. Glorfindel was one of those sent because he was very powerful and knowledgeable- as evidenced by Frodo when he sees Glorfindel as he is "on the other side". I think the film missing this is a shame as it is one of the few clear demonstrations that Elves exist in the worlds of the seen and unseen simultaneously, a thing the film finds no room to mention and which is one of the most fascinating- I think- aspects of Elves.
And now to return to Dwarves in LoTR, well we're really just talking Gimli here as PJ excises all others from prominence- and Gimli is awful as a representative of Dwarves with no blame being laid here on the actor- just on the script. It quickly becomes apparent that Gimli's role is comic. Personally I felt the poor height jokes at Helms Deep killed the build up of tension being generated. Also the capping scene to Gimli and Legolas's counting game at Helms Deep- which I believe is an extended edition only feature- has the line "my axe is embedded in his nervous system"- I might be wrong here but does nervous system not seem a bit technical and anatomical for the level of knowledge in general in ME? Surely in his head, or brain would have done- a small point but still annoyed me and seemed indicative of the general sloppiness and rushed nature of much of the script. It still amazes me that with all the preparation and planning that must have been required to film 3 films all at once across years, that the actors were still receiving script changes under the door most days. Sadly it shows.
I agree about Arwen meeting Aragorn out in the wild. You're right, Mr Tyrant, though I guess Arwen would have had Elvish powers as well. The Warrior Maid thing didn't appeal. Her over-reaction to Frodo collapsing - she'd known him five minutes - was kind of weak and annoying. After that, though, I liked most of her role. The Romance with Aragorn I really liked and I guess was in line enough with the Appendexes for me to accept the sub-creation involved. (Though the prophesying about her son and Elrond sending her away did not sit at all well with me, nor the need to show Aragorn old and dead, which was not necessary, nor required - and a spolier really).

Maybe there should be a thread about Arwen's role in the LotR movies? Her connection to Dwarves would seem tenuous.

Yes, I like movie Gimli - but they took too many liberties. He was no clown in the book, though there was some humorous byplay between he and Legolas. I don't think the Scottish accent was needed either (and for once I'm not having a crack, Mr Tyrant!) If all the accents had been Scottish, it would not have mattered (and it certainly would have been an interesting twist!), but there was no need for 'accents' as such. [i:hhel5jat]Movie [/i:hhel5jat]English was fine.
I'm not a huge fan of Arwen coming to the ford, but I think there were worde changes (like Gimli the clown). Actually, despite Arwen coming not making a whole lot of sense, I could have lived with it if Frodo had been more than a sack of potatoes, so to speak.

I disagree with pettytyrant about Elves not being shown "on the other side". Arwen, when she first comes to Frodo, is all glowing and dressed differently. However, this doesn't make too much sense as she is not from the Blessed Realm and should not have the sort of power Glorfindel did.
I didn't mind Gimlis accent so much as the words he had to speak. Besides it was "sort of Scots" i.e. its of no definable Scottish region but its sort of Scots. This is far and away better than the painful to hear (if you are Scottish) Hollywood Scots as performed by the likes of Mel Gibson's Braveheart (a film which is one huge flight of fancy).
On Arwen I merely add I would have preferred her absence from Two Towers- creating the entire warg attack bit just to drag Aragorn off for a bit to commune with Arwen for a couple of minutes was yet another huge waste of time on made up stuff in a film already over burdened with made up stuff eating up time.
Yes Arwen is a bit glowy and so too is Galadriel, Eldorion, but Glorfindel as a blazing light driving the remaining Ringwraiths into the water is an instant, visual dramatic way to show this- or so Tolkien seemed to think and I'm inclined to bow to the Great Man on it, not PJ. And all it takes by way of explanation is what Tolkien gives- two lines of dialogue between Gandalf and Frodo whilst Frodos recovering.
Poor Dwarves. So little respect for their thread <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> . So I think I will create a new thread to ask the question of whence the Hobbits came.

[quote="Gandalfs Beard":2gxq86q2]Poor Dwarves. So little respect for their thread <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> . So I think I will create a new thread to ask the question of whence the Hobbits came.


In a hole in the ground. (sorry [color=#008040:2gxq86q2]GB[/color:2gxq86q2] couldnt help myself) :lol:
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