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I know I'm a Heathen :P , but I don't think Aragorn of the books was arrogant. Assured of his rightful heritage, yes; but not overly confident that he was yet ready to lead. If I recall correctly, some of these doubts are expressed at Helms Deep.

Of course these doubts had to be resolved before he could take his rightful place as King of Gondor, and Aragorn has not been turned into a completely different character for the film. Jackson simply took those doubts and expanded upon them to create a character arc suited to modern film-making, and allowing a general audience to see the true Nobility of his character. And, If anything, it is those doubts that lead Aragorn (book or film version) to Wisdom and truly deserving the Throne. People who are absolutely certain that they deserve Power often have the least wisdom to use it responsibly (i.e. Denethor <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> ).

Thus, I think Jackson/Viggo's portrayal of Aragorn captured the essence of Tolkien's portrayal perfectly 8-) .

Part of my problem with a lot of what is done in PJ's treatment of the characters (Aragorn included) is this idea of a story-arc. Aragorn's really begins in Rivendell, first in his encounter with Boromir before the Council and then with Arwen and the scene at his mothers grave- these set up his starting point- and they try to develop him along these lines throughout the subsequent films until he arrives at King where he has resolved his doubts- the problem is that the actions Aragorn carries out are often at odds with this story arc as it is not present in that form in Tolkiens work.
An even better example of the disastrous effects of having to have a story arc for every character is Faramir, resulting in the horrible mess that is his capturing of the ringbearer and their march to Osgiliath. And even worse is the three way story-arc presented between Frodo, Gollum and Sam resulting in Frodo choosing Gollum over Sam and sending Sam home!- scenes I cannot watch for red mist.
But all these travesties arise from this idea that each character must have a story-arc with a beginning, middle and end and that all lose ends must be resolved by the finish. I think, when it came to adapting, the drive to provide story-arcs of this nature meant they deviated ever further from the original as the films progressed.
For ST:TNG fans out there its a bit like the excellent Q episode "Tapestry"- you pull on one seemingly insubstantial thread and further down the line the whole thing unravels.
Interesting thread.

I just wanted to stick my head in here and point out that Tolkien only added Bombadil because his daughter Priscilla requested it. It is really non-essential, and at the Council of Elrond that was stated explicitly. The tie-in with Merry's knife could have been handled by Aragorn mentioning that they were mathoms of his family, or some such thing.

I was curious what people thought of the treatment of Denethor. In the appendices to the movie the film makers explained every deviation from the books, except why they removed all the dignity and complexity from Denethor. Was it really possible that's the way they read the character? I think Tolkien would have been infuriated.
Well, it's the way I read Denethor <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

And welcome to the forum Halfwise :mrgreen: . The more the merrier.

Hi Halfwise,
On the matter of Merrys's knife- I did think if they had to leave out how he got it and the significance of it they could at least have dropped a line in at Weathertop, where in the film Aragorn provides them with weapons. Off the top of my head something like "These were forged by the people of these lands long ago to fight the evil of Necromancer who once ruled these parts." something like that- just for the fans.

On your point about Denethor I could not agree more. I don't mind the actor or the performance- I think he does quite well with the script he is dealt. But the list of things wrong about the character as presented is huge. I assume the decision to make him outright crazy and to have no Captains or defences was more to do with a desire not to have to introduce the side characters such as the Prince of Dol Amroth than for any other reason- this does of course not only change the character but makes scenes where for exmaple Denethor questions "Is there no Captain here who will follow his Lords commands?" (going on memory here so prob not a direct quote but in the ball park) it is a little ludicrous that only Faramir is in the room.
Also leaving out the palantir Denethor is using is a bit like having a character whose actions can only be understood in light of a mental health issue or addiction- then forgetting to mention it. And because of this the character fails entirely and simply seems unhinged.
I actually agree that a reference to Denethor's Palantir would have been nice. But I disagree that his character was essentially changed. He was and arrogant jerk in the books before he became completely unhinged, and so he was in the films.

Hi GB,
as a matter of interest when I re-edited the films I actually found away to imply Denethor's use of the palantir that took up only 3 secs of screen time! It was simply to insert a shot (from when Aragorn challenges Sauron in palantir) between Denthors lines to Gandalf "Do you think the eyes of the White Tower are blind? I have seen more than you know."- even for non Tolkien heads who have only seen my edit they get what's going on- how hard would it have been for PJ to do something similar?

But I do have to disagee that Denethor is essentially same man in both versions, book and film- in the film he is a broken man simply awaiting an inevitable defeat- in the books it is only the apparent loss of Faramir which finally tips hm over into this state of mind, previous to that the defence of Gondor is well under way, the beacons lit ("It's no good calling for aid once you are actually besieged." As Gandalf puts it). Denthor has emptied the city of civilians- for their protection and mustered as many maen as will answer Gondors call for arms. When he sends Faramir to Osgiliath it is not a suicide mission although many Captains think holding Osgiliath is an act of vanity and not tactically sound- this is a difference of opinion not the insistence of a raving mad man- and Faramir is sent to reinforce a garrison not to retake a city lost for ages.
These might seem like minor alterations to some and each one I'm sure there is a filmic justification for in PJ's head - but the cumulative effect of all these alterations to one character is to substantially alter him so that he is very unlike the Denethor of the books; a proud, noble man certain both of his right to rule and very aware of his responsibility to preserve Gondor for future generations- it is a combination of these two facets which led him to look in the palantir in first place. The Denethor of the films is a mere shadowy distortion of this.
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":2oza1xck]But I disagree that his character was essentially changed. He was and arrogant jerk in the books before he became completely unhinged, and so he was in the films.[/quote:2oza1xck]

My problem isn't that Denethor was an arrogant jerk for the entirety of the movie, but that he was insane and unwilling to defend Gondor for the entirety of the movie; a state he was only in for part of the book.

I'll try responding to your post about Aragorn when I'm not so tired. :lol:
I wouldn't have minded the change to Denethor so much if he wasn't such an interesting character. To me he was actually the most finely chiseled character in the books, and I've been surprised not only by the movie transformation of him (which the makers thought was so true to the books that they didn't explain any deviations) and by the fact that people on this board who know Tolkien well can agree with the portrait. He may be like an optical illusion that looks different depending on your mindset when you read his passages.

I'll try to go back and see if book-Denethor comes across as such a complete sod on rereading with a different frame of mind, but I don't think I can re-imagine him. Gandalf described him as " him the blood of Westernesse runs true, as it does in his son Faramir..." (quotes from memory may be a bit off) and I can't separate him from that air of tragic nobility and masterful complexity. Nor do I want to - the character is too good to ruin that way.

If you want to get in the right frame of mind to see the noble Denethor, maybe you should first read what Gandalf says of him, before Pippin meets him; and in the debriefing afterwards. "He is not like other men...". In the book the line " can use even your grief as a cloak.." is said in acknowledgement of Denethor's skill in cross examining Pippin while reading Gandalf's reactions (Gandalf could deflect questions in a way Pippin could not, and this also shows Gandalf who's boss by ignoring him), not derisively as in the movie. After which Denethor is willing to admit he needs Gandalf: "Let your wrath at an old man's folly run away..." The interchanges between "two such terrible old men" are Tolkien at his best, with so many hidden inferences as they talk over Pippen's head I keep making new discoveries. Breathtaking.

Anyway, if you haven't seen the noble/complex Denethor yet, go back and try again. He's worth it.
I should add that the brittle arrogance that overlays all this nobility is part of what makes him so interesting. I didn't mention it because all you saw in the movie was arrogance, with nothing beneath it.
I entirely agree with you Halfwise on Denethor. I love a bit of politics and love that section. For an example of how one dimensional Denethor has been made for the film one need only go and read the passage you describe between two such terrible old men and then go watch the corresponding scene on film. On a related matter I think people underplay the effect of Aragorn on Denethor's eventual fall- from his perspective when Faramir seems to have fallen its not just his sons he has lost- he has the lost the game of politics too- Gandalf has manoeuvred a successor into play- from Denethors standpoint the "last of a ragged line, bereft of lordship." Aragorn, this outsider none in Gondor has knowingly ever seen will come and take everything. For a man in Denethors mind-set that's a cruel final blow.
It's worse than that. Denethor HAS seen aragorn before, in guise of Thorongil (I think) who took service with Denethor's father leading sea campaigns against Umbar, and got more of the father's respect than Denethor did. Briefly mentioned in the appendices. Denethor suspects this is who Aragorn is, so has some old grudges to work out.
Your right about Aragorn having served in Gondor in earlier years- whether Denethor would equate a figure from so long ago with the coming King is harder to tell- especially as Denethor never sees Aragorn during the events of LOTR , but he may have had suspicions (and a palantir) and his own studies would have led him to knowledge of the possibility of a surviving northern lineage with a claim to the throne- and longevity. So maybe he did suspect. On the point of longevity any one any suggestion as to why if the blood of Numenor runs almost true in Denthor and Faramir they too don't have long life spans? Is it exclusive to the family of the kings? Did it stop with the death of the last southern king? Or the withering of the White Tree?
I think gandalf was speaking somewhat metaphorically rather than biologically, though Tolkien can be a bit of a racist when it comes to associating personality traits with geneology (boy am I gonna catch some flack for that one!).

But it's a good question as to how much of the longevity is shared among Numenoreans. I believe that on the island they were all equally long lived (unfinished tales has a whole section on numenorean life), but upon coming to Gondor they began to mingle. In an attempt to preserve bloodlines we have assume the royal family would have less mixing than others, including the stewards. I'm guessing at the time of LOTR the stewards may have marginally longer life than the general population.

On another point you are right to point out that we don't *know* that Denethor suspects Aragorn is Thorongil, but it does seem like he's the type to put the pieces together and have suspicions. This all would have been too complicated for the movie, in fact it doesn't even show up in the main body of the text itself. Putting the puzzle together after the fact is one of the great pleasures of LOTR.
With regards to longevity I've had a -all be it- quick- browse through Unfinshed Tales and in the notes to the Line of Elros there is some reference to it.
It is stated that almost all the Kings of Numenor reached their 400th year-there seems to be a contradiction in the work between Numeroreons possessing 3x the life span of normal men and them having 5x the span of men. Further it is indicated that Elros, brother of Elrond had a particulary longer span granted to him than was normal even for a Numeroreon.

Note 14 in the same section also references page 269 of the Silmarilion -which sadly following a tragic cup of tea incident I currently have no copy of to check- and states that;

"Gimilkhad died two years before his two hundred year, which was accounted an early death for one of Elros' line even in its waning."

Unfortunately as I have not a copy to check I'm not certain if this waning refers to a time after Sauron's influence but before the Fall or if it is a reference to a time after the Fall. But it would seem to indicate that the Royal Line even in decline remained longer lived than average men- so the question is did this extend to the line of the Stewards and any other surviving Numeroreons?
Unfortunately I didn't bring UT to my dorm with me, but if I recall correctly, the early Numenoreans had a 3x lifespan, but only the kings had a 5x lifespan. The comparative lifespans is a theme in Aldarion and Erendis.

The lifespans of all declined during the waning of Numenor, however, and even more after the Fall.
Thanks Eldorion, I'll need to look that up when I get a chance and thank you for the correct spelling of "Numenoreans", I knew I'd got it wrong when I was writing my last post but had a complete brain-freeze as to correct spelling!

It also occurred that there must have been a lot of survivors of the Fall not directly mentioned in the tales- household staff, shipwrights and rope makers etc not to mention any Numenoreans that happened to be on the mainland at the time- presumably some of the Nine are from these. But the matter of how long this group of people lived for seems a little muddled as it does with the line of the Stewards- perhaps further digging will turn something up to shed light on the matter.
Just a quick update on subject of longevity- did a bit of digging in the Tale of Years- Denethor was born in 2930 and died in 3019- which means he was 89 in the year of the War of the Ring- given he took his own life and beyond his mental state seemed otherwise hale it must be assumed that the Stewards did indeed still possess a somewhat longer life span -. I found Faramirs' date of birth in 2983 but couldn't see an entry for his death so not sure about him still.
No problem about the spelling, though there are two diacritic marks (little '/'s above the u and the o) that I don't include since my keyboard doesn't have buttons for that. <img src='/images/smileys/sad.gif' border='0' alt='Sad Smilie' />

[quote="pettytyrant101":7prqniyj]there must have been a lot of survivors of the Fall not directly mentioned in the tales- household staff, shipwrights and rope makers etc not to mention any Numenoreans that happened to be on the mainland at the time- presumably some of the Nine are from these.[/quote:7prqniyj]

Three of the Nine were Numenorean, but they had been corrupted long before (between the forging of the Ring and Sauron's coming to Numenor). Of those Numenoreans in Middle-earth before the Fall, the Faithful ones were concentrated in the north, in what would become Gondor, specifically around the port of Pelargir. Others, farther south, were King's Men; and the remnant of them that survived would become the Black Numenoreans.
Hi all,
was musing on the identities of the black riders- I may be wrong here as this is from memory as I don't have the books handy- but I believe Khamul was from somewhere in the east- perhaps the unseen lands the other 2 wizards travelled into. Is the identity of the Chief of the Ringwraiths ever revealed? I know in the guise of the Necromancer he helped bring about the destruction of the North Kingdoms around Weathertop and as far as the Barrowdowns but was he from this region originally?

This musing also led me to consider your comment Halfwise abut Tolkien and race- there can be no doubt Tolkien equates White with good and Black with evil, the broader question of wether this is racist or not is an interesting one though in light of the question posed by this thread- would Tolkien alter it for a modern reader- last time I read Fellowship- particularly scenes in Bree- there are many lines along the manner of "I won' let any black men through the door" etc that to a modern reader can seem uncomfortable (as this is at an inn reminded of old signs in hotels from 50's and 60's saying "No Irish, dogs or blacks."Wink Smilie- in Tolkiens defence the Nazgul have no flesh under the robes and therefore no skin colour- nevertheless I'm not sure in todays pc clmate he might have rethought how he worded certain passages. PJ obviously felt this needed readdressed- the Black Riders are never referred to in the film as Black Men and he changed the skin colour of the Haradrim so they were not black skinned. This may be one of the few areas I think Tolkien would have altered his work had he written it today- if only because he might find publishers reluctant to publish it in the modern climate.
pettytyrant101 - the Witch-king was probably a Numenorean because he has mentioned for his great height at least once, and Numenoreans were the tallest humans in Arda. He helped bring down Arnor in the guise of the Witch-king. The Necromancer in Dol Guldur was actually Sauron himself, but he didn't fight Arnor.

About the "black men" lines; as you point out, it refers merely to the colour of the Nazgul's robes. The hobbits had no idea that the Nazgul lacked skin colour and had likely never seen someone with black skin, so it's a huge stretch to call that line racist (not saying you are, but some have).
Duh- my poor addled brain- an error on my part with Necromancer- for some reason I was trying to think of witchkings realm and instead of angmar thought dol guldur- i must be getting old!

On the point of racism in LoTR I personnaly have never found it so, for me in the film the Haradrim should have been either arabic or black skinned- not for some association with evil but because of geography. By the same token the north is white centred because its in the north where the white folk live. However having said that I did think it spoke volumes that the film altered some of these racial aspects presumably because they thought it would, in todays climate, cause offence.
Actually the Haradrim and "Easterners" did look "Swarthy" and like Middle-Easterners or even from the Indian subcontinent in the films. A point some people did indeed complain about <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

And Eldorion is right. The Witch-king of Angmar is presumed to be one of the three Numenoreans among the Nine Men who received Rings of Power from Sauron.

on the point of the Haradrim in the film -and I might be wrong here- but I think for appearence they went more south pacific than Indian but the fact people complained anyway is kinda of my point- does that not make it more likely that if tolkien were revising his work in light of the film he may have acknowledged in a changing world some things can be taken offensively even where no offence is meant - personnaly I find this a sad state of affairs but it does seem to be how things have gone.

On the point of the Witch-King I am just curious who he was originally, before he got a ring, and when he lived. If he was a king of men which men and where?
There might be something about him in Unfinished Tales. I recall a part in the section about the hunt for the ring that there's alot about the Witch King and he even has a memory of his former life, though I don't know if that will be much help to you. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />
Since I originally let drop the comment about racism I guess I should jump back in here. As usual I'm responding surreptitiously at work because I see these things in the morning, so are relying on memory instead of direct quotes from the books. Just can't stay away.

Tolkien constantly assigns character traits to different 'races'; nobility to the Numenorians and Rohirrim, while referring to Dunlanders as lesser men. At the battle of Helm's deep Aragorn refers to the shouts of Saruman's recruits as sounding to him as no more than the cries of beasts. I always found that comment particularly jarring given who it came from. How much of this Tolkien assigned to culture and how much to race is of course impossible to tell. I feel that for the most part Tolkien was responding to the old British sense of aristocracy, which was much stronger at the time he was writing.

In Tolkien's defense, in my favorite book of lore - Unfinished Tales - the description of the Druadain elevates them from the wild man portrayal in LOTR to rather mystical and noble beings. During Sam's sighting of an Oliphaunt when a swarthy man falls dead right in front of the hobbits, Sam wonders rather touchingly about the man's name and if he had a family who would wonder what happened to him. To Sam all men are as one.

I think Tolkien is an interesting mix of universalism and classism. Mostly he rises above the ingrained classism of the early 20th century, but at times you can still see his mind moving in the old grooves. It's only evident in a few places, and I think if it was pointed out to him he would recognize and alter some of it. Not to be PC, but to more truly reflect his intent.
thanks Tinuviel I took a look at UT but couldn't find anything that helped- the former life he remembers is from when he was at angmar and attacked the people of the barrowdowns region, unfortunately its who he was before all that I'm curious about as it seems to be a mystery that Tolkien doesnt refer to often, yet one must assume given the Witch Kings special powers compared to other ringwraiths that he was a man (and King) of some stature in his day.

On the subject of racism I work with the elderly and find its easy to misconstrue their attitudes because of the language and phrases they use. Most I have looked after fought alongside various races in the second world war and never seemed to consider them anything other than fellow human beings but the words they use in refrencing them can seem racist to a modern ear without context. I think Tolkien prob falls into this category, I dont doubt his belief in a universal humanity- theres plenty in text to support it- but on individual ideals like white for good etc he is following traditional patterns of his age. If Tolkien was writing LoTR now in the modern world he too would be concious of modern sensibilities and some phrases may have disappeared but I wouldn't see that as admitting racism just of changing views in society.
Sam and Aragorn are two characters in a book. They are not real people. But like real people, they have their own thoughts and codes of conduct. They're not probably perfect (nor Politically Correct, thank God!) We can agree or disagree with what they say as we wish. Our reactions reside in our Freedom to React!

Hey! If we were all honest and thoughtful about it, we'd realize that we are all a wee bit racist or sexist or bigoted, both male and female, just like heterosexuals are a wee bit homophobic and homosexuals are a wee bit heterophobic. We're all human beings - but differences abound. We are are all a wee bit uncertain about our racial, sexual and religious differences - but some of us are haters to the nth degree while some of us try to be tolerant about differences - you know, to put ourselves in the other persons position!

Poltical correctness...Please! Give me a break! In Australia we have this idea of giving everyone a "Fair Go." Just an ideal, and not always one that is adhered to, but it's a good idea nonetheless. Human beings have their likes and dislikes - that's why tolerance is a good policy!

Apologies for the blather! But ever sice I grew old and wise enough to detect the presence of Politcal Correctness, I have blanched and got pissed off. It's Mind Police stuff! Political Correctness [i:1vej6zft]always [/i:1vej6zft]stinks of insincerity! It's no good telling people not to be [i:1vej6zft]anti[/i:1vej6zft] anything, it's better to find out why people are[i:1vej6zft] anti[/i:1vej6zft] anything and discuss the issues honestly, isn't it? (Um... [i:1vej6zft]tolerance[/i:1vej6zft] is a good place to begin, isn't it...? Mmm yep...)

Very true, Odo. But one shouldn't take Tolerance to it's logical Breaking Point and Tolerate Intolerance <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> (at least not overt intolerance). On the other hand, Old Fogies should be cut a little slack for growing up in a different era when their tongues slip a bit :roll: . I sense a Pythonesque routine in there somewhere.

I have been doing a little research into Tolkien's views on Ethnicity and Race. In keeping with this thread, I think it is plausible that Tolkien might have revised a few phrases had he lived as society progressed. Both he and his friend Lewis could no doubt be accused of (Anglo-centric) "Culturalism", but, in my opinion, not outright Racism. Their attitudes seem to have reflected the prevailing views of their time and place. Yet they were also often more progressive in some ways than they are often given credit for (particularly Lewis; though, as we have seen, Tolkien has also borne some--but much less, deservedly or not--criticisms from the Left ).

Really, this issue is worth a whole Thread of it's own, and would take several essays to do it justice; especially as it intersects so many other aspects of Tolkien and Lewis's views on religion and politics.

I found the following ISI lecture to be rather interesting and well worth reading despite Professor Birzer's misinformed views on Socialism and "National Socialism" (which was neither Socialist nor particularly Nationalist). Still, it raises some very interesting points about Tolkien (and Lewis) and his (their) views on politics (even as it exposes Prof Birzer's own biases):


[quote:qs45wi4f]"My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control
not whiskered men with bombs)-or to 'unconstitutional' Monarchy," Tolkien wrote to his son Christopher. "I
would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and
its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute
them if they remained obstinate!"[/quote:qs45wi4f]

This is a stunning admission from a man who had previously claimed to dislike "democracy", and tended to vote Conservative. Yet like many other writers from his era (such as the Anarcho-Situationalist Sci Fi writer Robert Heinlein) Tolkien seems to have had an evolving view of Political/Economy that couldn't easily be pigeonholed as "Left" or "Right". And this sense of "Anarchism" seems to fit more with his desire to make his works Universally acceptable than someone with a rigid sense of ideology.

So, though he may indeed have bristled at modern "Political Correctness", I think Tolkien might be more amenable to revising phrases that caused offense than one might initially think.

The Bad Guy is (usually) the Bad Guy. In WW2 Australians thought the Japanese (among others) were the bad guys. Cultural/racial differences tended to be noticed. The Japanese no doubt denigrated heathen Australians for our cultural/racial differences, as we were their enemy. Aragorn saw his enemies as being from the east and south and so (mildly) denigrated their cultural/racial differences. What did Aragorn's enemies think and say about Aragorn's kind of folk? We don't know. Tolkien was on Aragorn's side!(Weren't we all?!) Those Easterners and Southerners should not have allied themselves with Sauron. I might be Racist, but I hated Sauron! The Dunlanders were baddies too - until they had a change of heart at the end. Up until then they were [i:28zgkru4]Evil Men with Beards[/i:28zgkru4]. Yes, call me a Racist! Once they changed their allegiances, I found no trouble with their Beards! (There's only one Beard I'm still wary of - a certain Liberal Beard to be honest!)

When Sam saw an enemy human slain (by Faramir's men) he felt compassion. Close up the enemy is harder to hate, presumably, irrespective of whether you're black, white or puce! Common humanity sometimes shines forth beyond enmity and difference. Surely anyone with half a brain knows that Racism is the preserve of the pathologically stupid, not of people who are willing to open the mind. And most people are open to understanding, given a chance, and making a few unkind comments about different racial/cultural differences is not true Racism I feel, so long as there is a genuine give-and-take and a lack of malice between Races. The Politically Correct by being so ultra-anal-retentive about everything only make things worse (yes, not just on the issue of Racism!)

So there - I'll just put my soapbox back in the cupboard, shall I?

Hi all,
I like you on your soapbox Odo, very forthright (very Australian of you-is that racist?) in fact if you don't mind I'm going to borrow your box from the cupboard for a posting.
On your earlier point on tolerance and Gandalf Beards response to it- I'm not sure you shouldn't stretch tolerance to the intolerable, deciding something is intolerable is a decision someone has to make- who decides what's intolerable? An interesting illustration to this is a story a resident (read patient but were not allowed to call them that anymore its not PC- if you don't laugh you cry!) of mine told me. He served in WW2 and was demobbed in London for VE day- and the local London branch of the Nazi party choose that day to hold a rally. Now you would think they would have been torn limb from limb by a braying crowd, but they weren't, just laughed at or ignored, but no-one stopped them. When I asked the person telling me this why no-one was furious he replied "We'd just fought a war, lost family and friends to save our right to say what we like, even if what people say you don't agree with." This a version of the old maxim "I don't like what your saying, I don't agree with what your saying but I'd die for your right to say it."
It is I think the loss of this to the world of PC that has led us into current trouble on this area- in UK we tie ourselves in knots trying to decide wether a speech given by a Muslim cleric is his right to speak or an attempt to rouse his listeners into taking action- the point is stupid because he wouldn't be giving any speech if he was not trying to influence and the same can be said for every other religion in the world and anything said anywhere, at any time, by any politician. We should not silence these people we should present better arguements than them if we disagree.
To illustrate one of the other points made with another old folk ( very un-PC) story my Uncle served with Arab nations in WW2 and he says of the Arabs "there the best people I ever met," and he clearly has a great fondness for them but he also habitually refers to them as "towel-heads and rag-heads" and they called him (and no doubt every other Scot they ever met) "Jock". (They actually thought he was English at first but there's something about a heavily armoured Scot that means you only make that mistake once!). So what I'm saying here is I agree with the point you can call people you don't know all sorts of names (not always flattering) but it does not mean there should be an assumption of racism behind it, that's PC thinking which didn't exist in Tolkiens day.
Right that's my turn on the soapbox over- next!
Something to be thrown into the mix that suggests Tolkien likely would not have naturally attributed dark character to darker skins is his early experiences in south africa. The Tolkiens had native servants who doted on the boy, and apparently the relations were so comfortable that one of the younger servants took young JR off to his kraal overnight to show his family, but neglected to tell/ask the Tolkien family. Despite the commotion this must have caused, the very fact that it was psychologically possible suggests that there were very friendly relations between white and black in the Tolkien household. Even if he was very young during this time the attitude must have persisted when his mother took him away to England.

When Tolkien ascribes the ebb and flow of middle earth history to the ebb and flow of the various races, well, up until recently that's the way European history played out. It wasn't until the late 1960's that culture and race began to detach throughout the world. The same can be said of sexism. It's interesting to read writers that span the decades and watch the hidden assumptions change. Tolkien wrote before this great awakening, so we should expect to see the old order in his writing.
[i:2jg6lsis]Clear Thinking[/i:2jg6lsis] is a tool (I guess it's a tool) and a wonderful thing. [i:2jg6lsis]Reason[/i:2jg6lsis] is just as worthy a use of the intellect (if indeed it's not actually the same thing!)

What I mean is, please soapbox all day, boys, especially when you utilize the above two tools in forming your arguments! Also, I love the fact you have been philosophic, rather than political. And hey! anyone who is prejudiced against PC can't be prejudiced at all, and I don't even think what I'm saying here is a [i:2jg6lsis]conundrum[/i:2jg6lsis]! (Don't you just love the English language!)

We know that [i:2jg6lsis]Tolerance[/i:2jg6lsis] doesn't mean you can't kill someone who is trying to kill you (not to stand up against oppressors is insane in my opinion - sorry Jesus!) but unless someone is trying to kill you for their ideas, well I say, live and let live. I know this concept is too simple to always manifest itself perfectly in the real world - we're too complicated a species for that - but I feel it can be applied in most situations.

hi Odo. where in aus are you from? i'm from perth. WA. Originally yorkSHIRE
Vic, mate. (Was that yorkShire in Pommy Land?)

Just curious Oz folk- does pommy land refer to all of Britain? or are we Scots (and Irish and Welsh- and enclaves of Cornwall where they havn't given up the fight yet) excluded? And on the point raised in prev posts on name calling between races, if we are excluded, do you have special nicknames for us? And would we want to know?
We Australians are quite indiscriminate in our racial slurs (and rarely malicious, which I think is the saving grace for most us - unfortunately, not all!), and so I'm not a hundred percent sure if ALL Brits are Poms. I usually think of the English when I say it, though. In fact, now I'm thinking about it, I would not call the Scottish Cricket Team 'Poms'. In fact, I would not even call your cricket team a [i:1b59ssi6]Cricket [/i:1b59ssi6]Team. And, of course, calling you guys 'Scots' would not seem disparaging at all (except, perhaps, to the English?)

Unfortunately, up front, I can't think of anything disparaging to call you by. I could try making something up. Nah... it has to come naturally somehow, else it won't resonate or stick. Can you think of something disparaging to call yourselves? Of course, not something maliciously insulting. Mind you, if you can think of something to call yourselves that you'd absolutely hate being called, please let me know - just in case you upset me like a certain duo of Tolkien Liberals did oh so recently!

Hi Odo, the Scots dont consider the scottish cricket team a team either! In fact we dont really consider cricket to be a real game- its only purpose as far as Scots can see is for old colonies to humilate their former masters by beating them at cricket- we Scots have always preferred just beating them- although we generally lost (however the fact you will probably lose a fight has never really entered the Scottish psyche as a reason not to start one!), besides were happy just to watch their football team fall on its arse every major championship (usually because before the 1st round has kicked off the english are already talking about who they will meet in the final! A popular Scottish drinking game is to watch england play and you have to take a drink everytime someone refrences the 1966 world cup- try it you'll be comotased by half time usually.

As to offensive names- cant think of any off hand- maybe the english folks here have some opinions! We dont like the kilt being referred to as a skirt mind you, but then we tend to only wear them at weddings, Burns nights (if even then) and when abroad where it acts as a sort "I'm not English" calling card.
Well, I'm a proper Irish/British mongrel. I've got Irish, Welsh, and Cornish Cousins, and Scottish inlaws, Welsh Grandfather, English Grandmother. Personally I wish everyone would just get over it :roll: . As far as I'm concerned we're all Celts and Teutonics and quite mixed nowadays. In my view, we should all be celebrating our complete heritage and learning the various forms of Gaelic to keep them alive while pushing for greater unity politically instead of separation.

Please don't take me too seriously GB- I have no axe to grind with any of the wealth of peoples who now call UK home- in fact I'm all in favour of it and Scotland actually needs more immigration not less (so come on in, one and all- its lovely here, well when its not raining which granted it is most of the time but still..). Not to get too political on here but on point of seperation etc it is a source of ironic amusement to witness the English (broad strokes here) apparent terror of being "ruled from Brussels" given Scotland has been run by another country for centuries it frankly wont make much difference to us if that Government was a few hundred miles further south or not- but England seem to regard the idea of being run from another country as some sort of horror to be avoided at all costs- odd considering how long you've been doing just that to other people!
I can't help feeling it would be a sadder world if I couldn't at least attempt to get a rise from a Scot by calling a kilt a dress! (And I haven't even started on the Sporrin - no matter how it's spelled). As to an outside country ruling England for a few hundred years - well, might do ’m some good! Ruled by the Belgians? My God! Even an Australian wouldn't wish that on them! Imagine how bad they'd be at sport then! Yes, this is purely theoretical, but the English [i:16ythcwf]might[/i:16ythcwf] be able to get even worse at sport!

NB Do any Englishman actually play in the EPL?

As to Football: The World Cup! I've been told by the Footbally Wise that Australia won't get anywhere near winning it for fifty to a hundred years. And yet, Australians live and breathe sport - so I wouldn't be so sure. In any case - we'll take it on a tour of England and show it off to the Poms long before England gets anywhere near touching it! Sadly, this applies to Scotland as well... I hope this doesn't sound Racist?

So long as it's England you beat in the final the Scots will welcome you like conquering heroes! (Sorry English-folks we don't hate you really. If Scotland ever becomes independent it will be end of the country cause we've just been waiting for end of union so we, (the west coasters) can start a war with those smug east coast bastards, although got to be careful as you can't trust those damned island fairies not to sneak in behind- yep 10 yrs after Scottish independence and it'll be clan war time again! Cause at end of day there's noone a Scot likes fighting with more than a fellow Scot- the skirt wearing gits).
That's what I like about humans: get rid of one enemy, find another!

[quote="Odo Banks":1r62bve5]Vic, mate. (Was that yorkShire in Pommy Land?)


yes, pommy land. yorkSHIRE gods country they called it. They not me, i'm an athiest.
YorkSHIRE great countryside. Almost shire like (almost) <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
Isn't YorkSHIRE a bitterly cold nasty place where no self-respecting Hobbit would live? Known also as Sauron's Country (or Clayton's Scotland?) Or am I thinking of another YorkSHIRE which is nowhere near as nice as [i:19lxstb5]the [/i:19lxstb5]YorkSHIRE you live in?


NB Hey you might be confusing YorkSHIRE for Australia - "God's Continent" - don't you think?
In keeping with the current lack of thread discipline :roll: , I'm sure Joseph Dwarf would agree with me that DorsetSHIRE has the mild climate favoured by Hobbits <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

Where is that fine young dwarf, btw?

What has happened to that fine young dwarf, by the way?


Edit: Funny thing. I posted. It disappeared. I posted again. The former post appeared. Spooky!
Funny things computer glitches :? .

It's been a few days since J Dwarf has posted. Hope he pops up again soon. But perhaps we're just being too irrelevant for him to bother responding :roll: .

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