Very interesting Noom. If I've read it right then the masonic use of the word 'Master' would seem to owe more to a Hebrew root than a secular one pertaining to stone workers.
Don't think it fits with Tom's use of the word when referring to himself however. The possible connotation to corruption would not fit. Tom seems to be without corruption entirely to such an extent the Ring has absolutely no effect upon him.
And the word in Hebrew has too many holy connections, I never bought into the idea Tom is some sort of deity in disguise. I think he is both simpler than that and more basic, something pagan. A left over from a time that is slowly passing away. Something Tolkien instinctively felt existed even though intellectually and spiritually Tom contradicts what Tolkien otherwise believed.
Thread: BOMBADIL AND GOLDBERRY
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Just out of curiousty I checked out the root of the english word 'Master'.
It stems from the Old English [i:2rw7bcwd]m’gester[/i:2rw7bcwd] "one having control or authority."
It also takes in a bit of Latin, [i:2rw7bcwd]magister[/i:2rw7bcwd] "chief, head, director, teacher." It took in an influence from Middle French, with [i:2rw7bcwd]maistre[/i:2rw7bcwd] apparently this is a contrastive adj. from magis (adv.) "more," itself a comp. of magnus "great." And finally in 1904 it picked up the added meaning of "original of a recording".
Interesting that the English root for the word is devoid of religious or Holy connotations unlike the Hebrew word usually translated as Master.
It stems from the Old English [i:2rw7bcwd]m’gester[/i:2rw7bcwd] "one having control or authority."
It also takes in a bit of Latin, [i:2rw7bcwd]magister[/i:2rw7bcwd] "chief, head, director, teacher." It took in an influence from Middle French, with [i:2rw7bcwd]maistre[/i:2rw7bcwd] apparently this is a contrastive adj. from magis (adv.) "more," itself a comp. of magnus "great." And finally in 1904 it picked up the added meaning of "original of a recording".
Interesting that the English root for the word is devoid of religious or Holy connotations unlike the Hebrew word usually translated as Master.
Again, out of idle curiousty, I thought I would see what I could delve up word wise on Goldberry. Given Tolkien's love of old Finnish I thought I'd translate it- all this is internet reliant so I expect errors- translating Gold and Berry into Finnish gave me kulta-marja. I couldn't find an Old Finnish equivalent to kulta, but there is kulta-a, which means to 'grope (in liquids)' or 'to fish out.' This would seem rather suitable given Tom took her from the river and I'm sure Tolkien would have been aware of it.
Marja means the same as in English it has always meant a berry and nothing more it seems.
Marja means the same as in English it has always meant a berry and nothing more it seems.
Interesting finds Petty,
I don't believe that Melchizedek was the only source of inspiration but I find the parallels so strong that I find it harder to believe that no inspiration at all for TB came from it. I was not expecting to find paralells all the way.
I have another book called Meditations from Middle Earth with a lot of contributors from Pratchet to doh, can't remember and it is in the same room as a sleeping baby.
However, one of the guys in it, I think Sulivan by name posited that both Samwise and Gollum were both aspects of Frodo. Gollum was who Frodo would become if he gave into the powers of the ring and Samwise was Frodo at his best. I applied this thought to b and G in relation to Eru Iluvitar. That is where I thought of Eru and Melchizedek and Golberry as some form of Trinity. I probably have taken the parallels to far. Tolkien if he even did find inspiration from Melkizedek, probably found inspiration for Goldberry elsewhere. Also if he took inspiration for TB from Melkizedek, it was possibly only the fatherless, ageless enigmatic aspects of him that he could have tied in with ancient paganism. After all there are many interpretations as to who Melkizedek was. He is one of the most enigmatic characters in the Tenakh which many a Rabbi/Theologian will debate over.
(Folk here will be trying to suss out our friendship as we seem to be rather crabbity at each other a lot; we are probably a bit like Jack Lemon and Walter Matthau from the film, Grumpy old men. The Scottish version would be Crabbity Auld Sods)
If only I had a camcorder, lol.
I don't believe that Melchizedek was the only source of inspiration but I find the parallels so strong that I find it harder to believe that no inspiration at all for TB came from it. I was not expecting to find paralells all the way.
I have another book called Meditations from Middle Earth with a lot of contributors from Pratchet to doh, can't remember and it is in the same room as a sleeping baby.
However, one of the guys in it, I think Sulivan by name posited that both Samwise and Gollum were both aspects of Frodo. Gollum was who Frodo would become if he gave into the powers of the ring and Samwise was Frodo at his best. I applied this thought to b and G in relation to Eru Iluvitar. That is where I thought of Eru and Melchizedek and Golberry as some form of Trinity. I probably have taken the parallels to far. Tolkien if he even did find inspiration from Melkizedek, probably found inspiration for Goldberry elsewhere. Also if he took inspiration for TB from Melkizedek, it was possibly only the fatherless, ageless enigmatic aspects of him that he could have tied in with ancient paganism. After all there are many interpretations as to who Melkizedek was. He is one of the most enigmatic characters in the Tenakh which many a Rabbi/Theologian will debate over.
(Folk here will be trying to suss out our friendship as we seem to be rather crabbity at each other a lot; we are probably a bit like Jack Lemon and Walter Matthau from the film, Grumpy old men. The Scottish version would be Crabbity Auld Sods)
If only I had a camcorder, lol.
[quote="Noom Chevaline":zhgmjt8d](Folk here will be trying to suss out our friendship as we seem to be rather crabbity at each other a lot; we are probably a bit like Jack Lemon and Walter Matthau from the film, Grumpy old men. The Scottish version would be Crabbity Auld Sods)[/quote:zhgmjt8d]
I suspect latent (blatant?) homosexuality is the basis of your friendship. I might be wrong. I confess, I do tend to think all men are homosexuals - except me - so my view may not be Scientifically based - possibly a slippage into E.I.A. (I can get mentally lazy at times which segues into my spiritual side - yes, I have one - it's an irritant, but there you go).
I suspect latent (blatant?) homosexuality is the basis of your friendship. I might be wrong. I confess, I do tend to think all men are homosexuals - except me - so my view may not be Scientifically based - possibly a slippage into E.I.A. (I can get mentally lazy at times which segues into my spiritual side - yes, I have one - it's an irritant, but there you go).
[quote="Odo Banks":3ngdih9r][quote="Noom Chevaline":3ngdih9r](Folk here will be trying to suss out our friendship as we seem to be rather crabbity at each other a lot; we are probably a bit like Jack Lemon and Walter Matthau from the film, Grumpy old men. The Scottish version would be Crabbity Auld Sods)[/quote:3ngdih9r]
I suspect latent (blatant?) homosexuality is the basis of your friendship. I might be wrong. I confess, I do tend to think all men are homosexuals - except me - so my view may not be Scientifically based - possibly a slippage into E.I.A. (I can get mentally lazy at times which segues into my spiritual side - yes, I have one - it's an irritant, but there you go).[/quote:3ngdih9r]
Disapointed in you Odo, you reckon my picture was in bad taste
Funny thou
(as was my picture)
I suspect latent (blatant?) homosexuality is the basis of your friendship. I might be wrong. I confess, I do tend to think all men are homosexuals - except me - so my view may not be Scientifically based - possibly a slippage into E.I.A. (I can get mentally lazy at times which segues into my spiritual side - yes, I have one - it's an irritant, but there you go).[/quote:3ngdih9r]
Disapointed in you Odo, you reckon my picture was in bad taste
Funny thou
(as was my picture)Odo! 
Really, I would never base a friendship upon sex, its far to messy and too many fluids involved, and who has to clean up afterwards? Well it wont be me this time! I may have said too much..........
Besides only American homosexuals are blatant, in the UK homosexuals are much more respectable and can be found working throughout the entertainment industry where they discreetly act camp for the entertainment of the masses. Now shut that door and crush a grape!
Really, I would never base a friendship upon sex, its far to messy and too many fluids involved, and who has to clean up afterwards? Well it wont be me this time! I may have said too much..........Besides only American homosexuals are blatant, in the UK homosexuals are much more respectable and can be found working throughout the entertainment industry where they discreetly act camp for the entertainment of the masses. Now shut that door and crush a grape!
I was just joking.... ohhh Gawd!
And Chris - I joke no more about homosexuality than homosexuals do themselves - and I know quite a few (I've even discovered a new one! .. new to me anyway!
)
And Chris - I joke no more about homosexuality than homosexuals do themselves - and I know quite a few (I've even discovered a new one! .. new to me anyway!
)
[quote="Odo Banks":1y083z65]
And Chris - I joke no more about homosexuality than homosexuals do themselves [/quote:1y083z65]
Interesting..
And Chris - I joke no more about homosexuality than homosexuals do themselves [/quote:1y083z65]
Interesting..
[quote="Odo Banks":1eo6pv7x]I was just joking.... ohhh Gawd!
And Chris - I joke no more about homosexuality than homosexuals do themselves - and I know quite a few (I've even discovered a new one! .. new to me anyway! )[/quote:1eo6pv7x]
Takes one to no one springs to mind, not that theres anything wrong with it
And Chris - I joke no more about homosexuality than homosexuals do themselves - and I know quite a few (I've even discovered a new one! .. new to me anyway!
)[/quote:1eo6pv7x]Takes one to no one springs to mind, not that theres anything wrong with it
Well, if there was only ever one homosexual, Chris, then in a sense there would be actually none. 
Anyway, if you're trying to say Tom was homosexual, I can't agree. Though I don't know if his relationship with Goldberry was not just platonic, I do feel it certainly had a heterosexual ambience. And I'm not suggesting by that at all that Goldberry was some kind of aquatic tart either. No, she was definitely a lady.
HISTORY LESSON: In those far off those days, a man could dress in yellow, dance around guite gaily, and sing suspiciously gay songs, but still not be homosexual (apparently). I know the rules have changed nowadays, but you need to cast your mind back, Chris, to a Middle Age cultural milieu and mentality. Yes, sensibilities were quite different in those far off days (pre-1960, I mean).
Regards
Odo
Here to help.
Anyway, if you're trying to say Tom was homosexual, I can't agree. Though I don't know if his relationship with Goldberry was not just platonic, I do feel it certainly had a heterosexual ambience. And I'm not suggesting by that at all that Goldberry was some kind of aquatic tart either. No, she was definitely a lady.
HISTORY LESSON: In those far off those days, a man could dress in yellow, dance around guite gaily, and sing suspiciously gay songs, but still not be homosexual (apparently). I know the rules have changed nowadays, but you need to cast your mind back, Chris, to a Middle Age cultural milieu and mentality. Yes, sensibilities were quite different in those far off days (pre-1960, I mean).
Regards
Odo
Here to help.
Anyway, if you're trying to say Tom was homosexual
I never said that Odo, stop twisting things.
How did we get on to this subject?
[img:bz0rgy4z]http://i37.tinypic.com/1zmo23d.jpg[/img:bz0rgy4z]
I never said that Odo, stop twisting things.
How did we get on to this subject?
[img:bz0rgy4z]http://i37.tinypic.com/1zmo23d.jpg[/img:bz0rgy4z]
Oh Christopher, you are soooo cute! 
[quote="Mirabella Banks":33yy9xnw]Oh Christopher, you are soooo cute! [/quote:33yy9xnw]
Thanks Mirabella, my hairs a little longer now and i have more teef
[/quote:33yy9xnw]Thanks Mirabella, my hairs a little longer now and i have more teef
I think you're just adorable! What a cheeky little mite!
