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Thread: Where does Gandalf come from?


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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Tuesday 20th January 2004 (09:38pm)
Einar originally began this thread by posting.

Quote:
I was wondering, Saruman lives in his tower (Orthanc) but where does Gandalf come from?
Is he just a Ranger-Wizard?


Grondmaster replied

Saruman and Gandalf were actually Istari (wizards) named Curunir and Olorin respectively and they were sent along with three others of their kind, from Valinor by the Valar to overthrow Sauron. Gandalf didn't have an actual home or base of operations in Middle-earth, but wandered between the different peoples, preparing them for the upcoming confrontation. He was known in The Shire, The Lonely Mountain, Dale, Rivendell, Lothlorien, Edoras, and Minas Tirith, and most places between.

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Peredhil
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
I'd just like to add that the Istari were Maiar.
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Allyssa
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Strictly speaking, the Istari were forbidden to take up lasting abodes.

Saruman, however, seems to have considered himself above such directives and since he was the leader of the order, the other wizards do not seem to have had the postAuthorIDitiy to stop him. This disobedience was probably the first sign of the 'taint' or 'corruption' of his spirit.
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Einar
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Thanks!
But in which book is talked about the other wizards?
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Faramir
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
The Unfinished tales has a rather large chapter named "Istari" and they are also mentioned in The Silmarillion as well.
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Rednell
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
I think you may be right about this being a sign of Saruman's impending corruption, Allyssa, even if he, himself didn't see it as such. It would seem that he managed to convince even himself that his residency at Isengard was in the best interest of Middle Earth.
From Unfinished Tales/The Battles of the Fords of Isen:
Quote:
It can thus be readily understood that when Saruman offered to take command of Isengard and repair it and reorder it as part of the defences of the West he was welcomed both by King Frealaf and by Beren the Stewart. So when Saruman took up his abode in Isengard, and Beren gave to him the keys of Orthanac, the Rohirrim returned to their policy of guarding the Fords of Isen, as the most vulnerable point in their western frontier.
There can be little doubt that Saruman made his offer in good faith, or at least with good will towards the defence of the West, so long as he himself remained the chief person in that defence, and the head of its council. He was wise, and perceived clearly that Isengard with its position adn it great strength, natural and by craft, was of utmost importance.
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Littleirena
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Now that the subject is sorta brought up, i have an other question concerning Gandalf(and all the other races).

We all know that hobbits are hobbits , Elves are Elves, Humans are Humans, but are Wizards born into Wizard famillies, or was there simply a few wizrds apointed at the begining of time?

That's my -strange- question Big Smile Smilie

Wiggle Smilie
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
There were only five wizards and we know that the main three Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast did not marry, at least not while on duty in Middle-earth. From this we may conject that the other two, the blue wizards who went into the east to counter the works of Sauron and were never heard from again during these tales, also remained unmarried, unless maybe they didn't and that is why they dropped off the radar. Be that as it may, if you want to find non-Muggle families, you must visit to the works of JK Rowling (whose fifth book I now hear is finally scheduled to be released in June). Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
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PlasticSquirrel
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Erm, if getting yourself a place to live is so bad guys, then how come Radagast the not at all bad lives in Rhosgobel Hmmm?
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Ross
has made 2148 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Yup.
Quote:
We all know that hobbits are hobbits , Elves are Elves, Humans are Humans, but are Wizards born into Wizard famillies, or was there simply a few wizrds apointed at the begining of time?

There were other wizards, quite a few of the nazgul were scorcerers before they took the rings of power, some elves have magical powers as do some humans, like the Druedain and there ability to create wooden idols that would defend people or places.
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Aulë
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Erm, if getting yourself a place to live is so bad guys, then how come Radagast the not at all bad lives in Rhosgobel Hmmm?


Great! Thanks Plastic....I have been wondering where Radagast lives.....but where is Rhosgobel located?
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MadWannabe
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
That is a place called Rhosgobel?
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Aulë
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Are you asking if there is a place that is named Rhosgobel or are you implying that you already know it?

I am not offending your spelling because mine isn’t good either.....but I don’t understand what you are saying...
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Peredhil
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Great! Thanks Plastic....I have been wondering where Radagast lives.....but where is Rhosgobel located?
It's on the southern borders of mirkwood.
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Ross
has made 2148 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Great! Thanks Plastic....I have been wondering where Radagast lives.....but where is Rhosgobel located?

If you look at the great bight in mirkwood it's on the opposit side of the forest!
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Aulë
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Thanks Ross and Peredhil!
I will check that out!
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Ross
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
It's ok Aule it's near where Isildur got killed! Your best bet is to read the bit's on Isildur and the ancestors of Rohan!
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Aulë
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Okay but where that written then? In which books?
Unfinished Tales?
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Ross
has made 2148 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Okay but where that written then? In which books?
Unfinished Tales?

Yep!
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
On the maps of 'Wilderland' and 'The Misty Mountains', pages 76-77 and 80-81 respectivly in Karen Wynn Fonstad's Revised Edition of The Atlas of Middle-earth, Rhosgobel is located about 7 miles north of the Old Forest Road, about 20 miles south of The Carrock and Beorn's home, and 35 miles east of the Old Ford on the Anduin (The Great River). Teacher Smilie

How she decided to place it in this location I am uncertain, but it is good enough for me, as I don't believe it has any bearing on the actual outcome of the story.
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Uruk_slayer
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Technically, I thought Radagast didn't have a permanent home (meaning a house) there but that was where he was mainly found. He was a vagabond of sorts wasn't he?
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Technically, I thought Radagast didn't have a permanent home (meaning a house) there but that was where he was mainly found. He was a vagabond of sorts wasn't he?
True. From 'The Council of Elrond' FotR:
Quote:
It was Radagast the Brown, who at one time dwelt at Rhosgobel, near the borders of Mirkwood.
From Note 4 to 'The Istari' UT:
Quote:
Rhosgobel, called 'the old home of Radagast' in Fellowship of the Ring II 3, is said to have been 'in the forest borders between the Carrock and the Old Forest Road'.
There I found it in text.

These last few posts might better belong under Places; however, I don't think I'll be the one to move them.
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Aulë
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Yo I just read in "The Complete Tolkien Companion" by J.E.A. Tyler that Gandalf was a maia of N’mo! I thought that he wasn’t really under any Vala but was going from Vala to Vala to get as much knowledge as possible.....oh well....

But I have read about that now in the UT Ross....but I didn’t get as much information about Radagast as I wanted....but it is still one of my favourite booksBig Smile Smilie
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Findekano
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Gandalf was 'chief councellor of Irmo' , Namos brother though he also served Nienna and Manwe.

On the ithry luin, Tolkien was unsure about their backgrounds but in his Late Writings (HoME 12) he claimed that they came in the S.A and there names were Morinehtar and Romestamo. Here is the quote:

Quote:
he 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Menthat had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.


Since this was Tolkein's last take on the subject it can be seen as over-riding the Allatar and Pasllando theory of Unfinished Tales
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Since this was Tolkein's last take on the subject ...
But was this J.R.R. Tolkien's last word on the subject, or just young Christopher's last voliume of his father's writings and notes edited? I really don't know. Elf Confused Smilie
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Peredhil
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Could it be that they are just different names for the same characters, all still correct, as Gandalf, Olorin and Mithrandir are three equally correct names for the same person, just used in different places?
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Findekano
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
The aptly named Last Writings from which the different version of the Blue Wizards is given date from 1970-72, Tolkein died in 1973. So these were evidently Tolkeins last words on the a subject he didn't care to discuss much.

Quote:
Could it be that they are just different names for the same characters, all still correct, as Gandalf, Olorin and Mithrandir are three equally correct names for the same person, just used in different places?


No because the histories give for the two wizards I have mentioned coming in the S.A are different from the view of Allatar and Pallando who went East with Saruman in the T.A. Tolkein talks about them 'failing' in a letter of his, yet looking at the descriptions of what the S.A wizards done doesn't it give a hint of them not failing?

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Aulë
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Well what actually happened to Allatar and Pallando then Findekano?? Did they die, turn away from the assignment they got or did they preach and try to make the Easterlings go against Sauron??
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Findekano
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Aule, it is explained in my first post were I have citied the quote.
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Aulë
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Aha....okey....so they were true to their task?
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MadWannabe
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
I just wanna point out something, strange that we all miss such an obvious answer...Gandalf came from Eru the creator of all things.

Yeah...I know it is dumb, but hey, it is fun! Big Laugh Smilie
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Aulë
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Hey Mad....long time no see....where have you been?
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Florian
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Strange thing to say from me, but does anybody know where Eru come from??? I happen to know many things on Tolkien but this ....nope. It's nt mentionned in the Silmarillion nor other books right? Smoke Smilie
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Aulë
has made 1232 posts and is a Dwarf from Moria and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
That’s correct Ringfacwen.....but these stuff are too heavy to discuss....it’s not healthy...

It’s like when you carry a heavy load of something....your back get’s hurt......same thing with the mind.....if you think too much about time and what was before that and other stuff out there.....you can damage your mind and that aint good at all!

Just leave it at: Eru is the beginning and the end!
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Amarië
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
It just like the expanding universe, it expands all the time sort of like a balloon. But it doesn't expand INTO anything, cause there's nothing there. It's to hard to understand so we just have to except it. Untill some scientist tells us there IS something there, then we have to belive that in stead. Wink Smilie
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MadWannabe
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Hey Mad....long time no see....where have you been?


Up, down, east and west and it ain't exactly interesting Wink Smilie

Perhaps we should not think of Eru as an entity or a being. How about thinking that all things are just a manifestation of Eru? I mean like Eru is everything and all individuals are just simply a extension of its being and not just his will? Is it even possible?
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Wooffy_Elendil
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Hey, there is Saruman the white, gandalf the grey, AND RADAGAST THE BROWN!!!! He is mentoned in the hobbit and lord of the rings a coupe o times.
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Tyrhael
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
I once read "but of Ol’rin we shall know no more of than what he revealed in Gandalf" or something like that. Does that mean Gandalf was not truly himself; his personality was just a fa’ade...? If he was Ol’rin, but he didn't act like Ol’rin, then his actions as Gandalf were false? This whole thing is confusing me, and I dont even kow if I posted in the right thread. Very Sad Smilie
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Virumor
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Olorin was a maia, but because he took the form of an old man, the burden of the flesh made him lose some of his power : he could experience fear and doubts and he could forget his task and succumb like what happened to Radagast and Saruman.

Gandalf is the form that Olorin took in Middle-Earth on the command of Manwe and Varda.

[Edited on 16/10/2003 by virumor]
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Aulë
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Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
I like the part when Aragorn tells Gandalf that he is in no need for a horse that he can travel faster then the wind if he wishes too....I guess Aragorn figured out the true nature of Gandalf Tongue Smilie
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