Well he was not an elf I think.....but a man! I highly doubt that the offspring of two humans can be elven.....

Of course he was mortal - Beren was a Man, L’thien was mortal when she returned to Beleriand.

That settles it, then.

Sorry, my dates were quite off/wrong. I took the statement that the sons of Dior weren’t twins from the statement in the Beorian genealogies (HOME 11) that Elured (Here ’Eldun’) and Elurin (Here ’Elrun’) were born in the F.A 492 and 496 respectively and died in the sack of the re-made Doriath in 506, yet confusingly Tolkien gives Dior’s death as 511. It seems Tolkien revised this in the Tales of Years (HoME 11) to them being twins and being born in 1st age year 500, and their deaths in 506 ,thus making them 6. I’d just like to add it wasn’t the sons of F’anor that killed them but the SERVANTS of Celegorm. Maedhros later searched for them, as the Quenta Silmarillion says.

They were mortal and therfore they couldn't be re-incaranted. Also, Tolkien dropped the idea of Elven re-incarnation, instead saying they were given new bodies not born into their children a.l.a 'Laws and Customs'.

Oh a post came while I was typing! Ahh I forgot that Elwing wasn't counted among the elves untill she came to Valinor and chose to become one, silly me. Well the conclusion is still the same, no reincarnation.

Well I am quite surprised! I always assumed that Dior was an Elf! But since he was mortal, that means that he and his wife Nimloth became separated for eternity! What a cruel fate! Does anybody know more about that matter?

The Valar couldn't just 'hand out' mortality and immortality, that was a act of Eru and Eru never sanctioned Dior's immortality since he was a son of two mortals.

Well then why did you post this:



[Edited on 30/5/2003 by Findekano]

Such lively discussion!

From The Book of Lost Tales, Vol 2: The Nauglafring



Now be nice people!

So Dior was the son of two mortals, but he was an Elf ?
Seems kinda confusing to me - yet it could be since when Dior recieves the jewel of Luthien he asks himself why the time of Beren and Luthien is so short --- this could indeed point out that he is immortal. (i read that in the Sil)

As I already told above, it would be absolutely shocking for me to discover that Dior was a mortal! He was reared among the Elves, he married an Elf maiden, he was then the King of Elves in Doriath... To be counted among the mortals would mean for him eternal separation not only with his wife, but also with almost all friends and companions of his life!

Alyssa in that mythology Berne was a Gnome, a Elf, and Luthien a dark-elf an the integral element that Beren was a MAN is missing an he is a product of two Elves and therefore a Elf.



Manwe's decree:


Published Silmarillion

Early Quenta Silmarillion; HoME 5

From these quotes one can see that Dior was mortal. He died in F.A 506 and Earendil comes to Aman in F.A 542 (I think, I do not have T.O.Y with me at the mo.) therfore Dior's fate was already sealed and Manwe's decree meant that all Peredhil descended from Earendil and Elwing could choose, implying that Dior, Elured and Elurin couldn't and didn't choose and this problem hadn't before occureed-no MORTAL had ever set foot on Aman and Dior was mortal since he was a descendant of two mortals.



That was the title that he 'labelled' himself with, after Doriath was sacked, since it is true he WAS Thingol's heir, and it was a position of utmost 'respect' and it has little do with his mortality/immortality.



Also from the same essay:



Note she was of the 'children of men' (As she says so herself he is mortal, a man, a hot man at that, or hot woman) and therefore is no mortal and this passage strongly implies she is a mortal man now. (Both quotes from the Problem of Ros, HoME 11



As Aule said err..Asterix's happen

Well done, Findekano!

But what about the "unless other doom be granted to them; " clause? What if Dior was one of the 'exceptions'?

However, you are quite correct in that Dior was usually refered to as 'Peredhil' , not an elf.

Well Manwe's decree was issued some time after Dior's choice was given, either by Namo or Manwe, though of course it would have to be Manwe, since he was the only one who could have 'direct' discourse with Eru and thus he must have consulted him prior to the judgement or acted on what he though was Eru's wishes.

As Findekano said I think he was a mortal.

I think that the 'exceptions to the rule' were Elwing, Earendil and his descendants. Note his wording, he doesn't say everyone exempt from Earendil's family, but all people with mortal blood, including Earendil's family and therfore they are the 'exceptions'

There's one problem: wouldn't this apply to Elwing as well if Dior is mortal? I mean, Manwe has to be consistent or he's just an arbitrary tyrant, right? I agree with the position stated elsewhere (I can't remember whom to credit) that the Half-Elven "default" to Quendi until and unless they choose to embrace the Gift of Men, but that once such a choice is made their descendants are bound by it. I also concur with another statement whose author I forget that the Elves of Doriath would have never consented to rule by a mortal.

Dior is the son of two mortals : Beren, a Man, and L’thien, an Elf who became as a mortal woman upon her return to Beleriand.

Elwing is the daughter of Dior, a mortal, and Nimloth, a Sindarin Elf... hence Elwing is Half-elven but Dior is not.

At least, that's the way I see it.

I forgot about Nimloth. When it comes to the union between Elves and men Tolkien has seem to gone into somewhat extensive detail on each union. Beren & Luthien, Tuor & Idril, Aragorn & Arwen. Earendil & Elwing is as debatable as Dior & Nimloth. Either way though I never thought of Dior and Nimloth as one of the classic unions. I bet if you were to make Tolkien fans take a little quiz and ask them to name each union between Elves and Men 75% would not mention Dior & Nimloth.

This is a wonderful thread to read if your interested in the laws of Elven blood lines. For those who were involved it would be great to know if minds have changed after a few years.