Aule began this thread with the following post.


Bugfeanor replied

Well, Aule, I think that Nienor-Niniel had some sort of premonition; something inside told her that what had happened was very, very wrong!!!

I still don’t get it

Niniel/Nienor was pregnant with Turins child when Glaurung told them they where brother and sister, i think that was the main reason she trew herself of the cliff.

So I guess what it all means is:
1. It was springtime
2. Niniel was feeling ill during her pregnancy (mayby it was a sort of premonition as bugy says, maybe it was really bad morningsickness)
3. People said Glaurung had left Nargothrond.

[Redigert den 4/10/2003 av Amari’]

Wasn't Nieniel still pregnant when she drowned? That was why the baby was never born.

Yes, Nieniel was in a family way when she took her dive as Amari’ and Allyssa have said. The wanness very well may have been caused by morning sickness, while the sadness was caused by Turin being unavailable to bring her ice cream and pickles or to share the wealth of her burden.

The above plus Tolkien's setting the time of the ocurrance is why I said JRRT or young Christopher tried to say too much in too few words.

[Edited on 5/10/2003 by Grondmaster]

That was always the impression I had when reading that piece too. As a reader you know something is dreadfully wrong, so it is easy to overlook the fact that Nieniel is sad rather than looking forward to the birth of her child.

Don't forget, also, that prior to meeting Turin, Nieniel had forgotten her whole past. To lose your identity would take some getting over, and though someone might get over the initial shock fairly quickly, there would always be a questioning of who you are lingering behind. This latter doubt most likely would cause depression over the course of a year or so. If the same thing happened to me, I think I would feel guilty at finding love, knowing I could well be married to someone else somewhere.

As for the rest of the sentence... Like Grondy suggests, Tolkien was giving us the information of two sentences in one. I think you will find this quite a lot in the Silmarillion. Take for instance my all time favourite Silmarillion paragraph composed of four sentences.... Genious or jumble???? In my opinion genius. In just four sentences he manages to mention:-

The names of 21 people and 21 different relationships between those people.
The fact that Turin was the Bane of Glaurung.
That Beren had only one hand, and that he managed to return from the dead.
That they were the descendants of a line of kings.

I challenge anyone else to manage so much in just four sentences.

Val's paragraph sounds a lot like the "begats" in Genesis 5 of the Bible or more like The Gospel According to Matthew 1.1-17.

Menegroth is located in Doriath, not in the Ered Luin, like Belegost and Nogrod. It lies somewhere in Doriath, next to the Esgalduin. I have seen maps of Doriath with Menegroth on. I don't know what map you are using, but best is to use the Atlas of Middle-Earth.

The History of Middle-earth by JRR Tolkien.

Either three massive volumes or hundreds of smaller books...... lots of information about everything - life, the universe...... Very much a reference book though. Val is the authority on this. He'll tell you about Morgoth's Ring etc.

Hi Terrijayne.

The Atlas of Middle Earth which the others have refered to is not actually part of HOME, or for that matter written by Tolkien. It is a very detailed and wonderful book by Karen Wynn Fonstad. I think the reference number for it is ISBN 0-618-12699-6.

Another good reference book is The Complete Guide to Middle Earth by Robert Foster ISBN 0-04-803001-5. It is more of an encyclopedia than an atlas though.

If you have a map of Beleriand, you can just about pinpoint Menegroth in central Dorioth on the south side of the Esgalduin River where it makes its westerly bend towards the Sirion River.

Thanks for the comparitive of the versions, Galin. By looking at them, I have deduced that Tolkien was saying basically the same thing in all of them. The message was that Niniel had Turambar's child in her belly, and Glaurang was making mischief nearby at the same time.