The opening posts from this thread were lost in tranferral from the old site but I have recovered them here.

I began the thread with



Thingol77 replied with






Thanks Thingol77. It was one of those things which I noticed last year... a ring that kept cropping up throughout Middle Earth history. It has a beautiful heritage, and I think its story would make a great film in its own right.

What I have written above is obviously only a very brief summary of the actual events. That is one of the wonderful things about Tolkien, though. You are able to pursue avenues of research that actually take you somewhere. It was while researching the ring that I discovered much about Arvedui which I did not know before.

There are so many great stories hidden away, just waiting to be untangled.

That is the one thing that struck me most about this ring. With the exception of the tales concerning Turin and his kin, it's history wove a path through most of the major events that occurred in the Silmarillion. I was really pleased to see Aragorn was wearing it in the film.

I like the idea of a mini-series. It would work really well. Maybe someone should write a suggestive email to Mr PJ.

I'd like to know who actually forged it, though. The twin serpents with a crown of flowers was the emblem of the House of Finarfin. Feanor, whose grandson Celebrimbor forged the later Rings of Power, had a frosty relationship with his two half-brothers so I don't think it was made by him or his sons.

Finrod was great friends with Turgon, who himself was a great craftsman (he forged Glingal and Belthil, in the likeness of the Two Trees), so I suppose Turgon is a possibility. If anyone actually knows who forged this ring, I'd love to know.

Which translation of the Illiad did you read, Sepdet? Robert Fitzgerald has one of the best out there. I read both Illiad and Odyssey from Fitz for one of my lit classes. But you're right Val, Sauron wouldn't really have need of something that more of a symbolic significance. He's looking for power.

Sorry, Aule, but that's something I'd like to find out too. As I mentioned in the above posts, it was forged by the Noldor in Valinor, but I cannot find out specifically by whom.

As the Noldor returned to Middle Earth just prior to the beginning of the First Age, it must have been made during the Age of the Two Trees, and was thus ancient.

If I find anything further as I plough through the HOME series, I'll add it here.

Thanks Perwing!

Anything on the history on the Scepter of Annuminas? I know the basics but how about an in depth run through of it? Probably not as ancient as the ring though, huh?

It's not as old as the ring but by the end of the Third Age, it was said to be the single most ancient object fashioned by Men's hands then in existence. A silver rod, it originally belonged to the Lords of Andunie in Numenor, and so by the end of the Third Age it was over 5000 years old.
I think you may be getting a little confused here, Virumor. Annuminas was the capital of Arnor not Numenor. The scepter was forged in Numenor, but it was taken to Middle Earth by Elendil after the destruction of Numenor. After the death of Elendil, Isildur took it North to Annuminas, but after the fall of the North Kingdom, it was kept by Elrond at Rivendell for its safekeeping. He gave it to Elessar after the War of the Ring to be a symbol of the Reunited Kingdom.

It should have been Armenelos instead of course.

From the passing of the Grey Company It was of course the standard which Arwen had sewn for him.

I might be wrong too but i thought Aragorn carried Anduril with him (it was used in the battle in Balin's tomb in Moria) but the scepter was brought by Elrond at Midsummer. According to Numenorean custom, the scepter, not so much the crown, was the symbol of postAuthorIDity and kingship. I can't remember what Elladan and Elrohir brought with them from the top of my head.

And And’ril was reforged from the shards of Narsil and presented to Aragorn prior to the Fellowship ever taking leave from Rivendell.

It was PJ who got the timing off in his movies. I don't know why the movie Boromir was told to: "Seek for the sword that was broken: In Imladrils it dwells; ..." and after hearing Aragorn's prophesy: "Renewed shall be blade that was broken: The crownless again shall be king." they left without the darned thing. Doesn't make sense to me, but I didn't gamble the big bucks, so I guess it isn't my place to do anything but await the coming of And’ril in the movie and see if it makes for better entertainment PJ's way.

But this was really about the septre not the sword, about The Silmarillion, not the movies.

[Edited on 5/4/2003 by Grondmaster]

Okay, Uruk, lets try the history of a couple of gems...

The Elessar.
In the film we see Arwen give Aragorn a green gem, set in a brooch shaped like an eagle with outspread wings. This is the Elessar stone.
Tolkien wrote two accounts of this stone, and depending on which one you follow, there may be either a single Elessar or two of them.

The original was made in Gondolin by a smith named Enerdhil, said to be the greatest Noldor smith after Feanor (although another account has Celebrimbor as the creator). This gem was made for Idril, daughter of Turgon. When she passed over the sea with Tuor, she gave this gem to Earendil. He later took it on the voyage with him, and it was lost forever to Middle Earth. This gem apparently had powers of healing, able to restore much of the damage Melkor had done to the land.

The second Elessar was supposedly made by Celebrimbor in Eregion prior to the forging of the rings of power. This he made for Galadriel to lessen the pain she was feeling for the decline and decay of Middle Earth. Celebrimbor made this gem for her because he loved her, even though she had chosen Celeborn. Like the Elessar taken over the sea by Earendil, this gem was said to have had the power of healing too. Galadriel wielded it to grow all things fair, until she was sent Nenya, after which she gave the Elessar to her daughter, Celebrian. This was then passed onto Arwen, and from her to Aragorn.

In another account of this gem, there is only a single Elessar. In this tale it is taken over the sea by Earendil, as in the first tale, but is then returned to Middle Earth by Gandalf. Again Galadriel is grieving the fading of Middle Earth, and Gandalf brings her the stone as a gift from Yavanna. The stone not only aids healing the forests around her, but also serves to remind her that Middle Earth has not truely been forsaken by the Valar.

The Elendilmir.
The Elendilmir, or Star of Elendil, was the crown of Arnor (although the chief emblem of royalty was through the Sceptre of Annuminas). It was a single white gem bound to the brow by a slender fillet of mithril, but like the Elessar, it appears there were two Elendilmir stones as well.

The first was given to Tar-Elendil, the fourth king of Numenor, by the elves of Middle Earth. This he gave to his daughter Silmarien of Audunie, where it became a heirloom of their house, and so passed down to Elendil and then to Isildur.

This gem was lost with Isildur during the disaster at the Battle of the Gladden Fields, along with the One Ring. Interestingly, when Isildur used the ring to cover his escape, it was said he had to cover the Elendilmir with his cloak as its light shone through the power of the ring when it was uncovered.

After the loss of this first Elendilmir, a second stone was made for Isildur's son, Valandil, by the elves of Rivendell. This one became known as the Star of the Dunedain, and eventually was passed down to Aragorn.

After the defeat of Saruman, a close search of Orthanc revealed a hidden vault in which two items were discovered. One was a golden case large enough to hold a ring on a chain, while the other was the lost Elendilmir. It seems Saruman had perhaps discovered Isildur's remains in his search for the One Ring, but thanks to Gollum, the ring had eluded him.

Rightfully Aragorn took this Elendilmir too, but not wishing to imperil it again, wore it only on High Days in the North Kingdom. In FA 16, he is said to have given the Star of the Dunedain (the younger of the two Elendilmir) to Samwise Gamgee.

Here something good to think about. What about the origins of Orcrist and Glamdring? They are both from Gondolin and lasted through the 1st and 2nd Age and made their way into the Hobbit. What happened in between?

I think it actually happened much sooner than this, Sepdet. Numenor's fourth king, Tar-Elendil, had a daughter as his eldest child, Silmarien. Although her younger brother, Tar-Meneldur became king, her son, Valandil, was the first Lord of Andunie. It was from this line that the Faithful originated.

In my opinion, the Ring of Barahir was most probably given to Silmarien by her father and became a heirloom of this house along with the Sceptre of Annuminas and the Elendilmir.

As far as I know, the ring does not have any magical properties, it's value being in its heritage alone. That is most probably why Sauron did not try to get of of it.

Tolkien toyed with both possibilities without leaving a definite answer. Aragorn's sword Narsil was forged by Telchar the Dwarf in the First Age. Glamdring and Orcrist were First Age swords too, having been forged in Gondolin (Glamdring was actually Turgon's sword originally). I've always believed they were the same.

For information about an additional surviving palantir, see my posting of today's date under dreams/ prophecy in LOTR under the Book LotR.

I just want to back up sepdet on a couple of things she mentioned. Since I have recently come across this myself while doing some other research, I wanted to add that Aragorn did indeed give the Ring of Barahir to Arwen. This happened in T.A. 2980, and can be found documented on page 409 (Appendix B) of ROTK. I can find no information anywhere to suggest that Arwen gave the ring back to him, so I’m not so sure that we should be seeing it on Aragorn’s hand in the films, even though I will admit that it was a very cool touch, and I’m glad that at least in some way PJ choose to acknowledge the history of the ring. Just a small side note, I recently received the ’Helm’s Deep’ Toy Biz action figure version of Aragorn as a gift, and he has the Ring of Barahir on his finger. Yes I’m a geek, but I thought it was pretty cool!

Also, since I have re-read the Farewell to Lorien chapter twice in the last 10 days, I wanted to add that sepdet’s statement about Arwen leaving the Elessar stone with Galadriel for Aragorn is correct. Here is a short quote by Galadriel from that chapter (pg. 421, FOTR);

Since I have recently finished reading the chapter on The Palantiri, in Unfinished Tales, I wanted to add some information to go along with my original post in this thread concerning the palantiri. I had stated then that I didn’t know at that time, how all of the palantiri became lost. I now believe that I can offer a pretty accurate assessment of what eventually happened to each palantir.

As stated in my original post in regards to this matter, there were a total of eight palantiri. The Master-Stone never left Aman, and is located in the Tower of Avallone upon Eressea. The other seven were given to the Numenorians as gifts from the Eldar. The seven that were brought to M.E. by Elendil after the downfall of Numenor were divided. Elendil took three, and his sons (Isildur, and Anarion) each took two a piece (this is straight from The Silmarillion, pages 349, 350). The three that Elendil took were placed at Emyn Beraid, Amon Sul (aka Weathertop), and Annuminas. The four taken by his sons were placed at Minas Ithil (later Minas Morgul), Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith), at Orthanc, and in Osgiliath. Tolkien, I believe refers to three of the Seven Stones being ’major’, and the other four as being ’minor’ Stones. It is in this way that I will attempt to address what happened to each Stone.

The 3 ’major’ Stones that were brought to M.E. are listed as being the Osgiliath-Stone, the Stone at Amon Sul, and the Stone that was located at Eymn Beraid. Tolkien lists the Osgiliath-Stone as being the ’Master Stone’ of the seven that were brought to M.E. Tolkien lists this Stone as being lost in T.A. 1437 in the Anduin during the civil war of the Kin-strife. The Stone of Amon Sul was lost in T.A. 1975 in the shipwreck of Arvedui (along with the Stone of Annuminas). The Stone that was located at Eymn Beraid (or Elendil-Stone), was unlike the other Stones, and was not in accord with them. This Stone looked only to the sea. As far as I can tell, this Stone was kept pretty secret, was never lost, and it, and it’s tower were maintained, and guarded by Cirdan and the Elves of Lindon. However, it is said that Cirdan put this Stone aboard Elrond’s ship when he left for the Undying Lands (for more info, see Grondy’s post in dreams/prophecy in LOTR under the Book LotR).

Tolkien lists the four ’minor" Stones as being the Stone of Orthanc, the Anor-Stone, the Ithil-Stone, and the Stone of Annuminas. The Ithil-Stone was captured in T.A. 2002 by Sauron’s forces in the fall of Minas Ithil. This is the Stone that Sauron possessed during the time of The War of the Ring. This Stone was never found again, and it's believed that this Stone perished in the ruin of Barad-dur. The Stone of Annuminas, as I already mentioned, was lost in T.A. 1437 with the Stone from Amon Sul (after the destruction of Amon Sul by Angmar in T. A. 1409, both Stones were then placed at Fornost, where the King of Arthedain lived, it was in this way that they were together when they were lost in the shipwreck of Arvedui).

The Stone of Orthanc, and the Anor-Stone were never lost (for more precise info, please see the chapter on The Palantiri in UT). The Anor-Stone resided in Minas Tirith (the one used by Denethor). Obviously, the Orthanc-Stone resided at the tower of Orthanc (it was sort of forgotten, but not by Saurman). This is the Stone that both Saurman, and Aragorn gazed into. Since Aragorn was their rightful heir, both of these Stones were in his possession once he became king (although, as we know, Aragorn possessed the Orthanc-Stone before he was actually crowned the new King of Gondor). I know the Anor-Stone survived the burning of Denethor, because on page 131 of ROTK it says,

Nice post, Elfstone. Thanks for taking the time to research these posts for us.