Now that is a great idea, Grondmaster! I want to see the brave guy who comes dressed as Sauron.

I think the whole high culture/ low culture argument is a bit futile, since no matter how well either side argues its position, no one changes their mind (although Jonathan Frantzen vs. Oprah was amusing). I will say, though, that I have found art films and popcorn movies equally enjoyable and valuable (Ran and Jaws make a great double bill, if you have a whole lot of free time and ice cream). I don't think every film has to evolve the medium- how many permutations can you have? Cliches get to be cliches because they're effective. Lazy storytelling, perhaps, but I can't say a movie cliche is without merit simply because "it's been done." I've never found a movie genre that didn't have at least one enjoyable film (well, not really a porn fan, so maybe one genre ) "Just a popcorn movie" seems harsh. Even if this film isn't art on the level of Kurosawa or Bergman (whom I find dull. oh well.), it is still art. Skillful manipulation of cliche and archetype is an art in itself. Whether it's a valid art... is a pub topic.

On this topic... Ungoliant- I didn't miss Glorfindel, and I kinda liked Arwen as a substitute (until the "she-elf"/ "come and take him" exchange- dear lord!). I have nothing against Glorfindel. He's a fine character. But then I know who he is. I was glad not to see him because it meant I didn't have to answer another round of "Who's he? Why's he important? Are we ever going to see him again?" He's another elf, just shut up and let me watch! As many fans as the books have, I'm not sure there are enough of them to keep New Line solvent without the help of people who don't know a hobbit from an ewock. PJ and company kept as much as they could, I think, but some things had to go. And if Liv with a sword is the price I pay for a nice Balrog and a wonderfully realized Hobbiton, well, it's a short scene.

Feel free to yell at me.

I agree, I liked the new Arwen. I always thought the book's Arwen was terribly dull. At least PJ's interpretation had some personality (even if it's borrowed from Eowyn ) But I know people who were mortally insulted that she wasn't the same as in the book. Well, no. If Arwen just sat and sewed by Elrond's side and never said a word to the end of the trilogy, the critics would have savaged the movie. That's no longer an ideal image of femininity (I hope. Please let me be right, guys.)

If Arwen was meant to represent the ideal of feminity in Tolkien's time, then who was the ideal of masculinity? Aragorn?
But he's still the ideal by today's standards, ain't he? I mean, the guy can cook and fight, he's smart, loaded, tall and handsome (i hope, i hope) not to mention chivalrous and faithful (the whol thing with Eowyn). what more could you want? oh and he's got a great job.

Have to agree with Jehanne and Swampfaye on this one. Galdriel is closer to his ideal of "woman". Which doesnt say alot about him. Galadriel is still basically the Arthurian/Celtic White Lady - mystical, beautiful and virginal. Definitely a prize in the eyes of Tolkien. Not very active though.
But his, ideal of men is not much better. Swamp seems to be right. Hobbits are his refernce - once again noble and completely asexual. Too much chivalry. At least in Arthurian and Nordic legends there was lust and desire. It is a considerable force to be dealt with (look at Ovid) ; Tolkien just threw all that away. Pity. I guess he couldn't deal with it.

Of the subject; For those who'd like to discuss City of Fire vs Reservoir Dog. Lets go to the Golden Perch Tavern and pursue. Tarantino turned a HK Z movie by Ringo Lam (which I thoroughly enjoyed) into a major and important "independant"film. Lets continue elsewhere

Well, no, she isn't a virgin, but she's definitely a virgin-archetype. I mean, imagine Galadriel or any of the other elf women as sexual beings. Maybe Luthien, but the rest are too pure and untouchable.

Sorry Grondmaster. -hangs head and heads off to the pub-

i just came back from seeing the movie for the fourth time!!
and i saw the 'dead' orc lifting his head to watch Aragorn walk to Boromir. did not look injured at all.
teehee..

[quote I mean, what kind of film can you watch nowadays without bumping into s*x-scenes? I'm glad FotR is one of them, but then it's fiction, so this doesn't make sense... Hmmm... No, honestly, I'm glad there is no s*x in LOTR at all. You don't expect it in a book like LOTR. I mean, nowadays a book can't be good unless there's sex in it. Same goes for a film. Pity...