i've never understood something about the fellow ship in moria.
apparently gollum started to track the member from there. but how did he get out when the bridge collapsed after boromir and aragorn?
Thread: Gollum & Moria
I have wondered this myself...
I suppose that the term "where there's a will, there's a way....." would apply here. I would just assume that Gollum would have had such obsession that he could have frantically ran to find some other route. There were contraptions of old scattered around Moria (I assume that there were some of them around the route the fellowship taken) so he could have climbed around and found a way, although he would have gotten very far behind the fellowship, but he would have "tracked" them. Plus Gollum had survived the deep caves of The Misty Mountains and knew how to get around such dark places with ease, he more than likely used it within Moria. Gandalf knew that Gollum would have survived and found his way out, he still had a part to play after......
Gollum followed the beacon of the Ring, which would lead him out of any labyrinth in Arda.
Just a thought: Gollum showed he could scale rock walls like a spider in the Emyn Muil while following Frodo, Sam, and the Ring. Probably in Moria he scaled a wall near the chasm, crossed the ceiling, and down the wall on the other side of the chasm. If the chasm left the room via an arched opening, he wouldn't even have had to use the ceiling, just continued on the wall above the opening.
That is what I was thinking. Perhaps the miserble rat could cling onto the cragy walls of Moria and climb across that way.
perhaps you're right about he spider way but elesssar i don't thing there was another way except the bridge. if you remember the chapter you will see that the bridge was described as "an ancient defence of the dwarves aginst any enemy who might win the first hall" and i don't think that the dwarves would make another way to counter there own defence.
I think Thorin is right about there being multiple gates:
"Well, well! ' said the wizard. `The passage is blocked behind us now and there is only one way out ’ on the other side of the mountains."
"I cannot say,' answered Gandalf. 'It depends on many chances. But going straight, without mishap or losing our way, we shall take three or four marches, I expect. It cannot be less than forty miles from West-door to East-gate in a direct line, and the road may wind much."
These seem to indicate only two gates for the whole of Moria.
"Well, well! ' said the wizard. `The passage is blocked behind us now and there is only one way out ’ on the other side of the mountains."
"I cannot say,' answered Gandalf. 'It depends on many chances. But going straight, without mishap or losing our way, we shall take three or four marches, I expect. It cannot be less than forty miles from West-door to East-gate in a direct line, and the road may wind much."
These seem to indicate only two gates for the whole of Moria.
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perhaps you're right about he spider way but elesssar i don't thing there was another way except the bridge. if you remember the chapter you will see that the bridge was described as "an ancient defence of the dwarves aginst any enemy who might win the first hall" and i don't think that the dwarves would make another way to counter there own defence.
perhaps you're right about he spider way but elesssar i don't thing there was another way except the bridge. if you remember the chapter you will see that the bridge was described as "an ancient defence of the dwarves aginst any enemy who might win the first hall" and i don't think that the dwarves would make another way to counter there own defence.
Gandalf found another way out, didn't he? Though it was rather a transdimensional backway.
yeah but weren't they at thet time in the habitable parts of moria and much higher than the gates level?
I'd agree with Grondy, he would have scaled some sort of surface, if it were the ceiling or the wall, seems logical as he could in fact scale like a spider. I suppose the only way that he couldn't do that was if the walls/ceilings were completely smooth, after all he actually isn't a spider, otherwise he would have stuck to the walls, he was a "hobbit" once, and I don't remember any record of the bridge's walls, if you can call it that, being completely smooth, I doubt even the Goblins/Orcs could climb that
Maybe the trolls threw him on the other side?? 
Or, maybe he just went out another gate, or a window? The goblins got out somehow, Gollum just followed them.
Well fionwe, its the somehow we're trying to find out how. But i think you're right about gollum following the orcs. Maybe the trolls put slabs of rocks for the orcs to pass?
You create an interesting point Thorin, I don't remember how long the Orcs had taken over parts of Moria, but it must have been a few years or more..... so they would have figured out (as they aren't dumb really) that they need somehow to get across IF the Bridge ever did collapse, so they might have made a sub-route over the years as a sort of defense tactic, similarly to the dwarves as they purposefully made the bridge slim so that not many could pass without getting axes thrown at them. It is a possibility that in that time they could have built something....... there is no record of them building anything but also no record of them not building anything........
What i meant was not that they had built any enduring masonry work but had had the trolls lay slabs as they had done when they had been cut off by the fire. And orcs aren't as stupid as most people think as you rightly pointed out.
Trolls eh??? I don't understand where they could have led the slabs, there was no other place to "lay" them, unless there was, but still, Gandalf fell down to the "longer" route, so there wasn't other ledges that stretched across Khazad-dum that the "trolls" could have layed them on, as Gandalf didn't fall on any. You need a foundation before a structure is built
You don't get my point. what imeant was that the trolls simply layed down the rock on both side of the ledge. to make you understand what i'm trying to say i'll use an example. take two books and put them about 15 cm away from each other and then put a ruler of about 20 cm on them and you get my point.
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That is what I was thinking. Perhaps the miserble rat could cling onto the cragy walls of Moria and climb across that way.
That is what I was thinking. Perhaps the miserble rat could cling onto the cragy walls of Moria and climb across that way.
Now I'm doubt of his theory as well. I was reading the books again when I came on this: "...its black walls, polished and smooth as glass, flashed and glittered."
This describes the habitable parts of Moria. But it makes me also think that as the Bridge of Khazad Dum was adjacent to the great gates of the city the dwarves would surely have done the same to the lower halls. I doubt Gollum however crafty he was could have scaled me.
It is my belief that the bridge of Khazad Dum was the only was out. Considering that the distance between the two ends was 50 feet I wonder how the orcs also got out this quick to pursue the Company. It is true that they could have built something but that would require some time considering the unfathomed depth of the abyss immediately beneath it.
That is a puzzler really. Tolkien did say that it took a long time to write that and did he not often start a piece over and work backwards and all that . He had so much going on in his life and it is not like he had a computer and ways to track every little thing, however brilliant he was. It was perhaps just something he never thought out properly. But personally, no matter how nimble that evil baby killing thing was, no matter how skilled he became at scaling things, he was , after all a type of Hobbity person and not some strange creature with super powers that came to him in a science experiment like Spider Man. So I cannot think he could do all that scaling about in certain circumstances.
I think it was in The Hobbit when Tolkien mentioned that the goblins/orcs built machines later in life. He was expressing his charming distaste for technological progress by saying that the things that the orcs were able to made only allowed them to more fully achieve their destructive potential. I see no reason why they would not have been able to build a bridge, or, if not that, an alternate way out. After all, they had to get into Moria somehow to begin with (Unless I misremember, I just don't see orcs getting in through enchanted gates with Elvish passwords). Gollum must have snuck (My computer tells me that this is not a word) behind them however they got out. It is even possible that they discovered some old, Dwarven escape route.
Personally, I think that the most likely explanation is that Tolkien was just wrapped up in his personal affairs (Typical of the egotistical, artsy type.
) and forgot to provide the orcs with a way out. While Tolkien was attempting to advance his story, the orcs found their own way out. They may have been guided out by the will of Sauron, which, if I remember correctly, was causing them to stir from their mountain hiding places at the time. It is even possible that one of the Nazgul ferried them across on one of those flying, dragony things.
Or, just maybe, something like this happened:
First Orc: O!! Gartaug, we is stuck on this side of the chasm.
Second Orc: I can see that, Slog! What are you gonna do about it?
Slog: I dunno, maybe if we skin one of them trolls, we could build a hang-glider, and...
New Orc Voice (Emanating from a hole in the ceiling): What's all the fuss down there about? Have you Moria Orcs been dipping into the old Dwarven whiskey again?
Gartaug: Cousin Rashbald, is that you whinging up there?
Rashbald: @#$! right I am! What are you lot up to?
Gartaug: Those short people with the orthopedic disorder came through here, and they wrecked our bridge!
Rashbald: HA! Stuck inside your caverns then? I told you not to go fooling around in Dwarve's diggings, but you thought there would be treasure. Good luck getting the treasure out without your bridge! We're doing fine up here, in proper, element-eroded orc-caverns. Don't worry, we'll get those miniature, non-incestual Oedipus wannabe's. Even if we have to burn down the Elf forest to do it! (Rashbald's voice is muffled) Come on, boys, six tootsie roles to whoever finds me that pretty golden thing that has the gap that your finger can go right through! Whatcha call those...RIngs! That's it...
Personally, I think that the most likely explanation is that Tolkien was just wrapped up in his personal affairs (Typical of the egotistical, artsy type.
) and forgot to provide the orcs with a way out. While Tolkien was attempting to advance his story, the orcs found their own way out. They may have been guided out by the will of Sauron, which, if I remember correctly, was causing them to stir from their mountain hiding places at the time. It is even possible that one of the Nazgul ferried them across on one of those flying, dragony things.Or, just maybe, something like this happened:
First Orc: O!! Gartaug, we is stuck on this side of the chasm.
Second Orc: I can see that, Slog! What are you gonna do about it?
Slog: I dunno, maybe if we skin one of them trolls, we could build a hang-glider, and...
New Orc Voice (Emanating from a hole in the ceiling): What's all the fuss down there about? Have you Moria Orcs been dipping into the old Dwarven whiskey again?
Gartaug: Cousin Rashbald, is that you whinging up there?
Rashbald: @#$! right I am! What are you lot up to?
Gartaug: Those short people with the orthopedic disorder came through here, and they wrecked our bridge!
Rashbald: HA! Stuck inside your caverns then? I told you not to go fooling around in Dwarve's diggings, but you thought there would be treasure. Good luck getting the treasure out without your bridge! We're doing fine up here, in proper, element-eroded orc-caverns. Don't worry, we'll get those miniature, non-incestual Oedipus wannabe's. Even if we have to burn down the Elf forest to do it! (Rashbald's voice is muffled) Come on, boys, six tootsie roles to whoever finds me that pretty golden thing that has the gap that your finger can go right through! Whatcha call those...RIngs! That's it...
I think Tolkien had so many ideas which he all put to paper, and in the end had so many different versions of everything that he eventually just decided to randomly put things together and the result was LOTR.
Or maybe not.
Or maybe not.
Yay Vir! it is always a treat to 'hear' your thoughts on anything.
I think it is both, I think he tried his best to remember and such, but with all that philology and papers to mark and lecturing and study of other myths in other languages and the children and his dearest wife Edith and his pals and such, it had to happen I think that a mistake or just plain fatigue and picking something out just to get it done may have occured. I am sure his son knows.
I think it is both, I think he tried his best to remember and such, but with all that philology and papers to mark and lecturing and study of other myths in other languages and the children and his dearest wife Edith and his pals and such, it had to happen I think that a mistake or just plain fatigue and picking something out just to get it done may have occured. I am sure his son knows.
I think there's any number of ways the orcs could've gotten out. It was only a relatively small gap in the bridge, they might've laid down some planks. Or perhaps when the orcs came to slaughter Balin's crew they rigged up another bridge or dub a passageway. We also know there were windows...
I am watching LOTR FOTR, and i am in the seen right where golum first appears when froto sees him.
I was more concerned on how Gollum got into the caves of Maria?
From what I gathered, from the time they entered the cave to the spot where froto sees him, would of only been less than 2 days, since it is 4 days across the mines.
So that means Gollum would have been following them before the cave entrance, and there is no way he got through the big door cause everything feel down.
Now stick with me on this. If Gollum had gotten into the cave he must have found another entrance, which must have been a delay on his schedule of following them.
Which means, Gandoloph must have seen or known of his presence 3 days prior, which would of been before the cave entrance(I am fairly sure of), so when we see him it must be about day 2 in the cave. Cause after they see him, they show twice as much footage of them in the cave, so at the time of seeing Gollum it could of only been one day.
Obviously Gollum must have found another entrance, one that he must of got through. I am positive that he was delayed, cause even if he were to go through the rubble, he would of had to wait for the squid monster in the lake.
As for exiting the cave, well there were a bunch of chains, and small wooden bridges, he could of made his way across, but with out that bridge and skills like spiderman, it must have taken him atleast 1-2 days to get to the exit.
"Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear. Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways over the fire. But it was not the trolls that had filled the Elf with terror. The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid. Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it."
More Trolls could have used slabs of stone and other things found in Moria to create a temp- bridge. I think that this whole chapter highlights Tolkien's ability to write in an amzingly exciting way to truly capture the reader.
Dismay and fear would be mild to what I would feel and how I would react. Tolkien, what a writer, what a dreamer, for he must have been so up in that attic to come up with all this, an entire world with history and just everything. perfect, like a dance.
Yeah that's a good question!
Since Gollum's used to living underground and in the mountains, he would probably be able to find a way out.
Oooh what an interesting thread! Wish I had been around when it came about.
I don't think it's at all unlikely Gollum escaped the same way as the fellowship. The question now is how. Scaling seems the most likely but least logical. Thorin had the most logical but slightly unlikely explanation of the orcs or trolls building their own way out. I don't think they were smart enough to plan out a "just in case" escape route, particularly since they didn't think or plan on leaving ever again, but I do believe they were smart enough to build a way out.
The only other explanation is like someone mentioned he clearly found another way in. He certainly did not sneak in with all of the others as the wall collapses. And if he was following them it seems unlikely he'd be able to go all the way around the mountain and through the back entrance within a few days.
Thus, there had to be another way in, meaning there was also another way out.
My last point is do we have an actual reference to the orcs leaving Moria after the bridge collapses?
Just a thought. He may have been small enough to squeeze throught the pass of light which beamed into Balin's tomb.
Gollum lived in the misty mountains for 500 years. He would of found a different way in and out whether it was naturally made or by the dwarves. Many places that the dwarves build in moria were lost and forgotton even to the dwarves themselves. An example would be the endless stairway to Durin's Tower ontop of Zirakzigil. This was only in legend sometime in the TA and was only rediscovered by Gandalf and Durin's Bane during their battle. So Gollum must of found a different way in.
