I think that in his efforts to create a new 'English' mythology that Tolkien took inspiration for much of his work not only from the Norse mystologies but also the Celtic. In particular the Irish mythologies which are well documented (Check out http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/index.htm.) and also the iris language which is the oldest vernacular in Europe.

Of the Iris mythology and language Tolkien had this to say:
"I go frequently to Ireland (Eire: Southern Ireland) being fond of it and of (most of) its people; but the Irish language I find wholly unattractive." This is a lie on Tolkiens part to throw us off the trail. Politically and culturally, at the time he felt it unwise to admit that his 'new' English mythology was largly influenced by Irish Celtic language/mythology.

Think about it - Do you think that Tolkien as a linguist would not be interested in the oldest and best preserved of the ancient Celtic languages? Much of the themes throughout LOTR such as warrior chivalry, symbolism and even actuall names appeared in irish sagas written centuries ago. Even the word 'Orc' appears in the ancient stories of 'Cuchulain of Muirthemne' as a term meaning dwellers of the Orkney islands.

The concept of the 'ever-living ones' being the most graceful and enlightened people was fully developed in Celtic literature as the Tuatha De Dannan (or Aes Sidhe) - Check out 'http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/gafm/index.htm'. Look at the names in this manuscript 'The FirBolg', 'Midhir and Etain' etc, If you do anything read 'Part I Book II: The Coming of Lugh', after a while you will think that you are reading the 'Silmarillion' and Lugh the Ild’nach is an Elven warrior.

Other Irish legends develop the concept of 'the one eye'. Check out 'Balor of the evil eye'. He was a Fomorian, a race that could change form, especially to half human/half boar (orcish) form. I think that Tolkien spent much time studying Irish language and mythology (in his scholarly and linguistic capacities) but would never admit that his own writings were so heavily influenced by them.

Good reply,

I think that my main point is that Tolkien himself and everyone else makes big of the Norse influence
because it is so 'in-your-face' but tends to overlook the much more subtle celtic influence,
of which I think, we are only scratching the surface.

I read a lot of celtic mythology and every time I read about the Tuatha DeDannan bells
of similarity ring with Tolkiens Elves. I mean as warrior poets rather than timid
beings of Scandanavian mythology. Behaviours and lore rather than actual names.
The Tuatha DeDannan behaved very like the Elves, in a chivalric manner placing song and lore
alongside mastery in weapons. They arrived in Ireland on
ships from the west, from a land lost in the mist etc.

Tolkien would certainly have read the same material as I am now reading, so it just
makes me wonder. We'll never know I suppose.

Anyone willing to read 'Gods and fighting men' which is a conglomeration
of ancient recorded stories about the TDD, let me know what you think.
It can be found here:'http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/gafm/index.htm'.

On perhaps a different note it's interesting to note that Tolkien bore
a dislike of Shakesphere for turning the tall and elegant Elves of Scandanavian
legend into the comical fairy creatures of 'A Midsummer Night's Dream'. Much akin
to the way that the TDD become the comical leprechauns of Irish lore.

Are you one of these Scandinavian elves, sis? You sure have all the characteristics.

And well, Onions....you might want to take a look at the Nordic legend of Beowulf and his ring!

I believe Wagner's opera was actually based on the Germanic Myth The Nibelungenlied; or is Germanic Myth a subset of Nordic Myth? And Tolkien got very perturbed when people tried to compare his Ring to Wagner's Ring.

I don't think Tolkien lied when he said that. Maybe it was influenced subconsciously, or the aspects of Irish/Celtic language/mythology were present in other cultures, and that's where he got them from. And why would Tolkien lie to throw us off the trail? What did he have to hide? Did it really matter? And who would care? Remember that Tolkien didn't expect TLOTR to be THIS popular.

It's due to Wagner that everybody is familiar with the incorrect term "Twilight of the Gods", which is the translation of G’tterdammerung, which supposedly is the translation of Ragnar’k.

Ragnar’k, though, means Fate of the Gods and not Twilight of the Gods. Darn you Wagner!

As for Tolkien refusing to be compared to Wagner, that is probably because the man was extremely antisemitic, which is why today most (if not all) of his music is banned in Isra’l.

"Letters" are driving me crazy. I have never read them outside of what I find quoted here on the forums. But, every time I read a quote from "Letters", it shocks the Angband out of me (or should that be Mandos?). For instance, without having done any kind of research, I would have just taken for granted that Tolkien was largely inspired by Celtic mythology, and it would never in a million years have occured to me that there was any Norse inspiration. Am I just that stupid? (Don't answer that.)

I am surprised that you did not know of Tolien's Norse inspirations. The Elvish tongue is largely based on Scandinavian languages, right? I've always thought the flow of the Elven tongue always made the whole thing feel very very Norse. But I wouldn't be surpirsed if you didn't know this because you did not focus too much on the Silmarillion. Would I be right in guessing that you are really into Rohan, since that's where most of the Celtic element comes from?

But really, don't worry. You're not incredibly stupid at all. You're just the same as me before I joined this site.

I did not get a celtic impression of Rohan at all. In fact, The Hobbit and LotR don't give me any strong indication of cultural influences behind the scenes; they seem to be genuinely created (my ignorance is probably showing bigtime). My celtic impression comes from the elvish stuff, like in TBoLT.

Rochan is Elvish for 'Horse-land' but the Rohirrim used the Mark. Tom Shippey writes that Tolkien must have known that the Mercians of Central England probably called their land 'mark' (Anglo-Saxon mearc 'mark, sign, line of division' and mierce 'boundry, limit'. According to Shippey the West Saxons called their neighbors Mierce 'borderers'). Tolkien used Old English to translate the much older language of the Rohirrim, but warned that this linguistic procedure...

'... does not imply that the Rohirrim closely resembled the ancient English otherwise, in culture or art, in weapons or mode of warfare, except in a general way due to their circumstances: a simpler and more primitive people living in contact with a higher and more venerable culture, and occupying lands that had once been part of its domain' JRRT Appendix F

Tom Shippey argues however, that while the Rohirrim may not be based directly on the historical Anglo-Saxons of England, they are inspired in part by the Anglo-Saxons of poetry and legend.

That is very interesting , I think I would like to spend some time contemplating that comparison.
For some reason I think of Germany , well just as it was becoming that group of people and the wildness and yet pride.

Being as how our esteemed Jrr wrote an entire work on Beowulf and translated,I am quite sure you are one h undred per cent correct Mellon, very perceptive of you. And he seemed to always know which ancient group or ethnicity to borrow from to evoke that totally mythological, god-like, dream like and yet painfully real world into which he pulled us in and we don't wish to leave.

I was talking about Rohan Vir ,the Golden hall .The settlement/houses as you put it in another thread ,does look a bit like how the Vikings lived

I see. But weren't the Geats and 'Vikings' (Norse/Swedes) two different peoples?

Well, yes and no. Norse includes what today is Norway,Sweden, Denmark and Iceland. So the Geats would be counted as Norsemen/Vikings. Before Sweden was gathered as one country, the Sweds and Geats had seperate, neighbouring kingdoms.

Well at least it is clear that dear Vir did not spend his childhood reading comics alone .

Hey, TV wasn't available until I was 14 and we didn't get a set until I was 16; so I was a reader. My early reading experience was enhanced by reading 'Classics Illustrated Comic Books'. This is how I first read Nathaniel Hawthorne's House of Seven Gables, Mark Twain's The Tragedy of Pudd'nhead Wilson, Robert Louis Stevenson's Kidnapped, etc. In my later teenage years I found the actual novels in the library and read them.

I couldn't read any Tolkien back then as my small town library hadn't heard of The Hobbit and LotR was just being published. It would take me another ten plus years to become aware of LotR, three years out of Uni.

I think its fair to state the Professor was, like all of us, influenced by the stories and poems which he grew up with, studied and loved and if you look at his upbringing that would have been an extremely wide variety of European cultures and mythologies passed on through antiquity.

As with the Bible Versus Lord Of The Rings thread, if you look hard enough you can find influence from any culture, even very early Persian or North African within his works.  This is why we are all so transfixed by his stories, they are familiar enough that we can relate to them, but distant enough that they a Fantastical and awe inspiring.