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Thread: Tolkien and women


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I think she was a combination, she always in my mind sounds like running water and is light and airey and faerie like as a Tinkerbell. What a catch for a guy like that don't you think? But on the other hand I think he was the most wonderful kind of guy she could ever have, kind, industrious, wise beyond wise, powerful-so powerful the Ring meant nada to him, and faithful and loyal. sigh.......rather perfect.(except for those clothes and those silly songs., but that is nothing really.)
hey Poor Ol' Tom had no taste in fashion, eh?
It wasn't necessarily Tom's fault. Maybe it was Goldberry who clad him each morning.
Cue the *crack of a whip*
I don't think so Vir, because sometimes Tom was up and out before his beloved arose, is that not so/(No I am honestly asking, I dont' know).
About Lobelia Sackville-baggins, in all honesty she and Ortho had a legitimate reason to complain. After all, they should have inherited everything after the demise of Bilbo because after all he was a bachelor with no offspring. So I suppose their feathers were ligitmately ruffled to find an upstart whose queer parents actually liked water usurping all they had waited sixty plus years for.
But in the end dear JRR painted a rather lovely picture of Lobelia. She was touted as a hero, having stood right up to Saruman(Sharkey) when others were too intimidated and terrified to.
So really he made her softer about the edges and beloved after all.
I rather liked her, yes she could have worked on her manners and not been such a snoop; but we all have our faults yes?
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I don't think so Vir, because sometimes Tom was up and out before his beloved arose, is that not so/(No I am honestly asking, I dont' know).
This confusion might have been caused by taking some of Virumor's comments (and often mine) too literally, instead of just as the smart-alex comments they were meant to be.
oh dear, I have done that havent' I. Well in my little world even children are able to catch me in my usually naive state and have some fun. sigh...... Elf Confused Smilie
Did Tom even sleep, I don't remember him doing so, but if he didn't then there would be no need to change every morning, unless you see him in his nightie with bobble hat and all Elf With a Big Grin Smilie only to figure out it's Goldberry night clothes Orc Grinning Smilie but to be serious, I don't think his clothes even changed, unless he's got a wardrobe full of the same clothes and the local Old Forest Bloomingdales have a big order to fill.....
Come now, tell me the truth, you Loss and Vir and Grondy and some others are in truth wandering comics who just happen to love Tolkien and read him in the evenings around the campfire. Is this not so.
And how can you even suggest that such an illustrious, if slightly mad and wierd gentleman would not bathe regularly. If he does, and you know he would not offend the nose of his lady fair, then he must change into something else after bathing. HE MUST. I insist.
So when are you guys performing next and where. And how steep is the price of a ticket.?
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And how can you even suggest that such an illustrious, if slightly mad and wierd gentleman would not bathe regularly. If he does, and you know he would not offend the nose of his lady fair, then he must change into something else after bathing. HE MUST. I insist.

Maybe he had no other choice but to bathe, since his lady fair would personally drag him off to his surging and meandering mother-in-law who was after all, the River.

As for Lobelia and Bilbo, I take it that Frodo had been made Bilbo's adopted son which is the reason why Frodo inherited Bag End and the harpy received nothing.
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Bilbo's adopted son


...and Bingo-Bungo-Baggins was his name...i believe
That is such a wierd funny name. like the song 'there was a farmer had a dog and bingo was his name..

Yes dear Frodo, my hero of heroes did indeed inherit everything including the Ring.But still it is understandable for Lobelia and Ortho to be upset. It was not as if even Bilbo decided that very early on. It just sort of blindsided the Sackville-Bagginses. Now adays such a couple would most likely retain a solicitor and go to court claiming that Bilbo was unstable of mind and did not really mean to leave a Hobbit who was after all only part Shire Hobbit all that inheritance. And who knows, they might even win their claim.
They might have won in court, Leelee, but they would have soon moved back out because the workers who lived in Bagshot row would have moved in with relatives to escape them. The S-Bs could not run Bag-end without their help.
Halbard, you are not by any chance an elf with a law background or perhaps professorial are you?
You always have such well..........great answers. you make me think deeply.
I love Tolkien and I love Women, does that make me. bye
You love women, do you mean just as women from your heart?. If so that is certainly rare and wonderful. Thumbs Up Smilie
umm yes? hope that's the right answer. :p
I'm really wondering about the etymology of the word "woman".

Does it originate from "woe + man" or "woooooah, man!"?

Probably "womb + man".
It appears to descend from ME womman, wimman, OE wīfman (wīf female, lady + man).

According to the American Heritage dictionary, in Old English the principal sense of man was 'a human' and the words wer and wyf (or w’pman and wifman) were used to refer to 'a male human' and 'a female human' respectively.
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Maybe he had no other choice but to bathe, since his lady fair would personally drag him off to his surging and meandering mother-in-law who was after all, the River.

Actually, Goldberry's mother was not the River, but "the River-woman". Goldberry herself represented "the actual seasonal changes in such lands [real river-lands]" according to Letter #210.
I was using her epithet according to Tom Bombadillo, which is the River's daughter.
When the hobbits first came to Tom's house the met Goldberry who had been singing and she said:
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'Enter, good guests!'.....'Come dear folk!' she said, taking Frodo by the hand. 'Laugh and be merry! I am Goldberry, daughter of the River.' .....'Let us shut out the night!' she said. 'for you are still afraid, perhaps, of mist and tree-shadows and deep water, and untame things. Fear nothing! For tonight you are under the roof of Tom Bombadil.' - from 'In the House of Tom Bombadil' in FotR.

The only place I could find mention of the 'River-woman's daughter' was in the poem 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil' found in The Tolkien Reader, wherein it also speaks of their meeting, courtship and wedding. In that poem, Tolkien also used 'River-daughter'. So I assume the two are synonymous and only the metre decided which should be used where.
I think Tolkien had written enough about women. Many of the women in his books are beautiful and honourable, such as Arwen and Eowyn. The reason why he mostly wrote about men may be that many great deeds were done by men, some by women. Anyway I think men are more likely to fight bravely in Middle-earth.
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Anyway I think men are more likely to fight bravely in Middle-earth.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by fight. Obvioulsy men were more likely (and/or obligated) to join the army. That is why Eowyn's actions were so unique. But there are many ways to show bravery and a will to fight.
Very true, alot of different ways to fight in certain circumstances...

’owyn "fought" against custom of her country, by going into battle
Arwen "fought" against daddy's wishes of taking the easy way out (preferably it's the west way)
Rosie Cotton "fought" through the pain of pumping out 13 kids... though I have a theory that it wouldn't be as painful as Hobbit babies were probably the size of your hand when they were born, but as Hobbit women are smaller too, then it would probably have the same impact as men (by men I mean women) .... (and not Hobbit Women) Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Finduilas married Denethor... nuff said Orc Smiling Smilie
Nienor N’niel had to fight mentally with the fact she found out she married her own brother
Entwives had forgetful husbands who lost them, (I think they left personally, they taken too long to say "IIIIIIIIIIII lllloooooooovvvvvvvveeeeee yyyoooooouuuuuuuu") so they had to fight on alone, though none knows where they are
L’thien also went against Daddy's will of wedding a mortal and fought through troubles nonetheless...

I'm sure there are other ways, but I see that the women had alot to fight about (and I don't mean amongst themselves about if their dresses made their ears look pointy Orc Smiling Smilie ) they still fought on the sidelines with more or less equal problems...
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Arwen "fought" against daddy's wishes of taking the easy way out (preferably it's the west way)

No, she didn't. In the books, Elrond understood that all his children would one day make their choice, and he'd honour that choice whatever it'd be.

What Arweia/Xenarwen did in the films, is irrelevant as it is not Tolkien.

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L’thien also went against Daddy's will of wedding a mortal and fought through troubles nonetheless...

Not exactly. There was never any talk of wedding, since this was impossible without the father's consent. L’thien made the choice of just being with Beren, even if it meant living in the wild. Beren disagreed with this.

As soon as there was any talk of wedding, Thingol agreed to it considering the harrowing ordeals his daughter & her consort had gone through. The two star-crossed lovers were wed in front of Thingol's throne, as a matter of fact.

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Finduilas married Denethor... nuff said

What do you mean? It is written that Denethor loved his wife in his own way. Only after his wife's death he began peering into the Palant’r and turned into the grim, wise fool from ROTK.

Furthermore, Finduilas had a kind and gentle spirit. She would never stand up against her husband. She would rather carry her griefs and pains in private, which contributed to her early death due to the horror in the East.

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Nienor N’niel had to fight mentally with the fact she found out she married her own brother

What fight? It seemed she immediately succumbed.

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’owyn "fought" against custom of her country, by going into battle

She did not go into battle to fight custom, she had other things on her mind. She went into battle because she sought death after Aragorn had so painfully scorned her in front of the gates of Dunharrow.

In the land of shieldmaidens, fighting women should not be deemed as anomalous. I'm sure Rohirrim women took up weapons too to defend their towns from Dunlending raids. They wouldn't flee like scaredy rabbits like in PJ's TTT.

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Entwives had forgetful husbands who lost them, (I think they left personally, they taken too long to say "IIIIIIIIIIII lllloooooooovvvvvvvveeeeee yyyoooooouuuuuuuu") so they had to fight on alone, though none knows where they are

If they had at one point shared any matrimonial bond, they would not have left... since that would go into anything Tolkien believed about marriage. So I think here the Ents just admired them Entywives, but were either too shy to openly court them, or just forgot too.
Okay, you need to realise that this was in jest, hence the smilies and smirky comments, I know full well what happened in the books, and how PJ portrayed them, I agree with you fully about the errors that PJ made, if you can call them errors, probably differences on purpose... I am purely talking about other types of fights, more mental than anything... Most of what I said was mainly about them knowing that what they did wasn't the usual to whoever/whatever, not literal things... If you want explaining of what I meant for each of what you questioned then so be it...

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Elrond understood that all his children would one day make their choice, and he'd honour that choice whatever it'd be

I meant that Arwen knew that he didn't want his daughter to suffer death as any normal parent would... so she 'fought' (hence the 'quote marks') past her father's heart, you follow???

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As soon as there was any talk of wedding, Thingol agreed to it considering the harrowing ordeals his daughter & her consort had gone through.

Okay, we all know that they DID get married and Thingol agreed to it, but what I meant was at first he didn't feel that it was right and again, like Arwen she 'fought' past her Father's heart and went with Beren nonetheless, you see

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It is written that Denethor loved his wife in his own way.

Okay, that was purely in jest, as I never really liked him and what he did...

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Nienor N’niel had to fight mentally with the fact she found out she married her own brother

I mean immediatly when she found out, I know she killed herself soon after, that just shows that she lost the fight is all...

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She (’owyn) did not go into battle to fight custom

No she didn't and she did do it for other reasons, but nonetheless, as I said above, she did what was unusual to what WAS usual if you follow, if women were to GO to war then they would have been mentioned, we can neither say they were or weren't as I don't remember any mention, though they were Shieldmaidens we know, but I don't remember Shieldmaidens riding to war. She disguised herself for a main reason, she would have been seen by other men and they would send her back, plus being royalty and all, the men would have definatly sent her back, so in a way she fought that way, she had a small fight to get to the big fight see???

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So I think here the Ents just admired them Entywives, but were either too shy to openly court them, or just forgot too

The Ent thing was purely as a joke too, but no-one knows what they did, maybe they had their own fights while they were 'lost' but more than likely they would just forget who they married or something Orc Smiling Smilie

It really was all in jest, I know what the books say, though it's time to re-read again... but I think that they all had small fights that seemed big to them, mostly about getting past what other's (mainly parents) think is best for them (though the parents respected the decisions nonetheless)... Sorry for confusion Orc Smiling Smilie
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I meant that Arwen knew that he didn't want his daughter to suffer death as any normal parent would... so she 'fought' (hence the 'quote marks') past her father's heart, you follow???

No, I do not follow most of what you are trying to say.

All those women you mention just made a choice, a decision, that is all. People do that all the time.
Okay, in simple terms, I feel that the women in Tolkien's stories had their own personal challenges that they had to fight through to get what they wanted done... But as I said, it was all a jest that you would understand if you understood what I meant by the different types of fighting that Amarie said that could happen... So, sorry if you don't like it
Trying to understand women is a task more cruel and useless than Sisyphos and his boulder, and an ordeal more abhorring than Tantalus in his pool of water ... who knows what them harpies spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all their lives seemed shrinking, and the walls of their bower closing in about them, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in? No one knows!
Aye! I agree there... 'Hell has no fury like a woman scorn'd' might come into play and would probably give us men the small window of understanding what Tolkien wanted his reader's to know about each lady... though how did The Professor understand so much of women??? Maybe Edith gave him some pointers Orc Smiling Smilie
Tolkien , from his earliest years saw the women in his life as courageous, kind, gentle yet strong, fighters to the death as it were for what they believed in.
In his mother, once it was known that his dear papa had indeed perished in South Africa, Tolkien the child saw his mother's strength in leaving the relatives to tough it out alone. He saw her courage in the new life she had chosen, her new beliefs as a Catholic, her grief at being ostracized along with her sister. He saw her struggle in abject poverty. He saw her wisdom in allowing the help of the priest that was to become both a spiritual and physical father of sorts to h im.
He saw his mother struggle with her sicknesses and finally die alone and fragile. This broke his heart but also made his mother like an angel in his eyes.
Then he fell in love with Edith while both were yet babies in many ways. He saw her as another orphan, life already having been cruel to h er. He saw her as gay and beautiful, the prototype of Luthian Tinuviel, especially when she danced for him in the woods. He saw her as very strong and courageous. When they married he saw her even stronger, pregnant while he was away,having to cope alone. He saw her as brave when her health failed, when arthritus cruelly stopped her for the most part from playing her beloved piano. He saw her as best friend and ally. I honestly believe he used her again and again , along with his mother and his incredible auntie who was in her nineties and still going strong as examples of the sort of women he made in his sub creation. Brave, beautiful, ready to die for their loved ones, etc.
Had he had a different sort of mother, auntie, wife, well who knows. But this is just my opinion.
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