.[b:2ormx7am]GB[/b:2ormx7am]
Thread: Feminism
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Well, I do think that manners are chivalry in action, but I'll grant you that I'm just old fashioned enough that I put a little more effort into it for a Lady .
[b:2ormx7am]GB[/b:2ormx7am]
.[b:2ormx7am]GB[/b:2ormx7am]
Aha! Hidden beneath the Politically Correct Modern Feminist Man lies that Real Man that a Real Woman adores. Now where's that soapbox. Oh here it is. Hang on while...I...get...up...on...it. Ah! That's about right. Now....
GB, most women want their men to be men. It's a simple fact of life for most women. The women who don't want their men to be men want to be men themselves (or just don't like them, full stop). That's my experience.
If you narrow Feminism down to a fair go for all, and accept that promotion on merit is the best arrangement in business and life, then I myself am a Feminist.
Oh yes... and women who tell other women how they should behave in regard to men are usually bitter and twisted and unattractive (inside I mean - one must not judge the looks of others, because that would be wrong).
NB My wife is a professional woman who wears a dress, has doors held open for her, expects me to pull my weight with the kids and around the house, and takes no crap from anyone - but she remains a Lady through and through (except, of course, when the lights go out!
) Traditional male to female courtesies are just another form of intimacy at my house. (See John-Beren and Edith-Luthien for comparisons on this).
GB, most women want their men to be men. It's a simple fact of life for most women. The women who don't want their men to be men want to be men themselves (or just don't like them, full stop). That's my experience.
If you narrow Feminism down to a fair go for all, and accept that promotion on merit is the best arrangement in business and life, then I myself am a Feminist.
Oh yes... and women who tell other women how they should behave in regard to men are usually bitter and twisted and unattractive (inside I mean - one must not judge the looks of others, because that would be wrong).
NB My wife is a professional woman who wears a dress, has doors held open for her, expects me to pull my weight with the kids and around the house, and takes no crap from anyone - but she remains a Lady through and through (except, of course, when the lights go out!
) Traditional male to female courtesies are just another form of intimacy at my house. (See John-Beren and Edith-Luthien for comparisons on this).
[quote="Odo Banks":1qzq0ong]Aha! Hidden beneath the Politically Correct Modern Feminist Man lies that Real Man that a Real Woman adores. Now where's that soapbox. Oh here it is. Hang on while...I...get...up...on...it. Ah! That's about right. Now....
GB, most women want their men to be men. It's a simple fact of life for most women. The women who don't want their men to be men want to be men themselves (or just don't like them, full stop). That's my experience.
If you narrow Feminism down to a fair go for all, and accept that promotion on merit is the best arrangement in business and life, then I myself am a Feminist.
Oh yes... and women who tell other women how they should behave in regard to men are usually bitter and twisted and unattractive (inside I mean - one must not judge the looks of others, because that would be wrong).
NB My wife is a professional woman who wears a dress, has doors held open for her, expects me to pull my weight with the kids and around the house, and takes no crap from anyone - but she remains a Lady through and through (except, of course, when the lights go out! ) Traditional male to female courtesies are just another form of intimacy at my house. (See John-Beren and Edith-Luthien for comparisons on this).[/quote:1qzq0ong]
I agree; the other day I met a man, I did not know what it was about him that made me dislike him so much. Turned out he was a she. A woman may look like a man but she can never have the heart of a man. Unless it is given to her.
) Traditional male to female courtesies are just another form of intimacy at my house. (See John-Beren and Edith-Luthien for comparisons on this).[/quote:1qzq0ong]
I agree; the other day I met a man, I did not know what it was about him that made me dislike him so much. Turned out he was a she. A woman may look like a man but she can never have the heart of a man. Unless it is given to her.
Or she just cuts one out herself!! 
Or unless she's a Tranny. 
[b:kng0ul07]GB[/b:kng0ul07]
[b:kng0ul07]GB[/b:kng0ul07].. and there I was, just trying to have a respectable discussion... 
As to Men, I like them to be red blooded and hirsute, where possible.
I'm pretty hairy.
[b:3rqbt2hm]GB[/b:3rqbt2hm]
[b:3rqbt2hm]GB[/b:3rqbt2hm]
Durin may not be around this thread anymore, but I sure want to comment o his interesting statement about Good = Galadriel/Women and Evil = Sauron/Men. And that women are more favored than men are.
Okay, so this is an interesting thought. But I have to disagreements. Durin went all the way to The Big Boss Sauron on the evil side, but on the good side he stopped at Galadriel. He did not touch on the Valar. Sauron is more on a level with the Valar, than he is with the elves. I say that on the good side we have the Valar who are a mix of both genders: male and female. In that case Durin's idea does not work.
Now, the other problem I have with Durin's statement is that he says that, though he has little proof of it, he says Tolkien is in favor of women over men. First, how is that if most of his heroes are men? Second, yes, he does view women very highly and respects them very much, but WHERE does he hint that he favors them over men?
Just my views 
Looking forward to reviving this good debating thread....all friendly arguing!
Wen
By the way, the post that I am replying to is on the bottom of page one
Wen
WOW!!!
I can't believe anyone actually dug up this old fossil of a thread. I'm just impressed someone bothered to read through it. 
Hey, I've have just recently taken it upon myself to pull up some oldies
But what is even better is that I've pulled you out of the closet too. Welcome back!
Wen
You'll more likely run into me at Forumshire arguing with Petty Tyrant and Odo these days. But I'm thrilled someone bothered to read this stuff.
my father has always said, with a small tone of resentment in his voice, that women can expect equal treatment with men as soon as they are ready to fight in wars.
Ask him next time, is it OK for women to be victims of the war.
Eowyn had the crucial point in her discussion with Aragorn: we go to war and leave women to burn with the house, and than - after they got killed, enslaved, raped and so on - we refuse them any respect, because they, see, do not "fight in wars".
Tell you what. We are worse than this. We we refuse them any respect even if they DO fight in wars. During the WWII millions of Russian women went volunteers, were enlisted or took part in guerilla movement. They suffered every hardship of war PLUS sexual harassment from their comrades in arms, PLUS enemy atrocities, 'cause Germans treated women soldiers not like prisoners of war but like guerillas. See, they said that no way woman can be a soldier, so any woman taken on the battlefield is a guerilla. Fine chivalry, eh?
I was about 15 when I have red The Unwomanly Face of War by Svetlana Alexievich. Since that, when I hear something like "women can expect equal treatment with men as soon as they are ready to fight in wars", I cannot stand it.
I think that the world inwhich Tolkien grew up was very diffferent to our modern world where women are treated as equal ( at least in most of the 1st world ). Tolkien, for the most part, describes the women in his work as powerful, repected and honourable. They just dont feature within the battle and or wars because as Tolkien would have thought, women should have no place in battle as he had experienced it. The trench warfair he witnessed isnt a place for anyone, let alone the fairer sex. It sounds mysoginistic, but I dont think it is. Some say that Tolkien put his women on pedestals, but I think he simply wanted to show that the female side of humanity, or Elvenity equals peace, repect and something that Men should perhaps look to for guidance. There are many women mentioned in the Sil and from memory all are good and light and only fight at the last need, when there is no other option. Haleth of the Haladin, is a great example of this. Astoundingly brave and proud.
Brego, that was one of the most sensible posts I have yet read on this thread.
Tolkien really was, I think, being chivalrous through his writing. He respected women. And heck yeah, every man should respect women. If you take a look at his various stories, he enjoys a good love story, but in the love stories, the lady is always respected.
That is the way it should be. I like his message.
Cheers,
Wen
Totally agree Wen. We must always remember that a lot of JRRT's stories were laid out in the middle of War.
