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Thread: Was Tolkien Prejudiced or What?

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Norse and Danish? If I didn't know already, that would have been all the proof necessary to place Val in England. Smile Smilie
Just showing my ignorance of anything beyond Britain's six mile territorial waters, I'm afraid. I should have said Norwegian and Danish, although I think several of the sagas were probably of Icelandic origin too.
Hehe! My point was more that Danish and Icelandic myth is norse also. Norse covers all the vikings. The Danes focused on England, the Norwegians on Ireland, the Shetlands and Orkneys, the Faeroes, Iceland, Greeenland and a short visit to America. The Swedes, or Russ, as they also were called, went east and founded Russland (Russia) and spent most of the time sailing up and down the big rivers and trading with Constantinopel and Bagdad. Particularily they traded furs and slaves (slavs) from their new eastern regions.

Although they lived in what is now different countries and focused on different areas, they were the same people, mingeling, marrying and fighting, with the same beliefs, traditions, religion and cultural history. All in all: Norse.

I put you in England because in English-english, danes and vikings are, for obvious reasons, pretty much synonymous. Smile Smilie Orc Grinning Smilie
This also explains why Danish, Swedish and Norwegian languages are so alike. Iceland speaks today the way we all did back then. Blessed be their stubborness and will to keep their language pure and their (and our) history alive. But that is whole other discussion.
I always figured the Norse and Vikings were all Scandinavians who include the peoples of modern Norway, Denmark, Sweeden, and Finland, or did back in the middle ages when I was in the fourth grade of elementry school some 55 years ago. But Grev's explanation is a lot more detailed and makes sense historically. I assume the Angles were in England first. Were the Saxons then the Danes?
Not sure about the Finnish. Finland was a part of Sweden for a while, and a part of Russia for another while, but I don't know in what order.. To complicate things further, the Finnish language, along with Hungarian and Basque, are the only languages in Europe wich is not Indo-European in origin. It is VERY different from... eh.. anything else, really. So I am assuming that the Finns is a separate tribe from the Scandinavians, but I do not know this or have any clue from where the Finns then might have come.

As for England, the Celts were there first. They have then gradually been squeesed into Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Then came Romans and later Vikings. The Saxons are German, from the German province of Sachsen. (pronounced Saxen, more or less). Not sure when they arrived, but a small voice in my head *Gulp!* keeps insisting that they came as mercenaries to help in a war against.. eh.. Romans? Someone else entirely? Dunno..

I thought the Anglo part of Anglo-Saxon came from the English province of Anglia, basically Saxons from Anglia. But now I am on very, very thin ice, and with all the knowledgeble Brits on this forum, I need a liferaft soon, before they start making slush of the little ice here is! Smile Smilie
Anglo-Saxons (I believe) came from two areas of Germany - Angeln and Saxony - after the Romans withdrew from Britain. They more or less replaced the Roman culture with their own but shared Britain with the Danes and Vikings. The Normans came later and were also assimilated into our varied culture.

The Celts also originated in Europe and were not, I believe, the indigenous people of the British Isles.
Danes and Vikings
Smile Smilie

The Normans were Viking of origin too. The/a French king gave Normandy to a viking chieftain as a bribe in exchange for him to help in keeping his relatives out of the rest of France. But by 1066 (the Norman invasion) they had become very "frenchified".

The Celts was all over Northern mainland Europe, including current-day Germany and (at least) northern parts of today's France. If you are ever in southern Germany, visit Schw’bische Hall, a beautiful town where the Celts mined salt more than 4000 years ago. You can still see the mines. Smile Smilie

As for indigenous of the Britis Isles... At that time, 4000-6000 years ago, Val would have been a landlubber. The North Sea and the Channel was dry, and Britain was not an island. I don't know how far back the Celts started settling in Europe/Britain, nor do I know if someone came to Britain before them, but if they did they seem to have left very few traces of themselves. Their eventual impact on British culture and gene pool must be negliable.
Just to add to the confusion. What we call vikings today is not what they called vikings back then. You were only a viking if you had been 'in viking', which means you were taking part in a travel out in the world trading and shopping and/or raiding.

Norway+Sweden+Denmark+Iceland = Norse
Traveller, colonist, merchant from these areas = Viking
Prior to the Celts settling in the British Isles there were the 'Beaker' people but I'll have to google to find out more about them. From what I remember they were a white race, used beakers a lot (I kid you not) and had no written records and were quickly absorbed by the Celts.

P.S. Just googled and found this


Even the Beaker people weren't the first here.
Perhaps they used their beakers to store beer, for they grew barley and knew how to brew beer from it.
I was obviously wrong. Their impact on on British culture is tremendous! Alcoholic Smilie Big Smile Smilie

I actually knew about the beakers, but had forgotten them. Perhaps because the word beaker brings forth an image in my (sick, sick!) mind of a cartoon dodo with a big beak wich it knocks against huge amounts of pottery... Ahem...

Does anyone else think they know where Tolkien got his Bree from?
Does anyone else think they know where Tolkien got his Bree from?

No, but I think the Ents ended up at Glastonbury.
Very interesting, but no mention of when the Elves came Elf Smilie Does lack of Elves in British history mean Middle Earth was not based on Britain?
The Tor at Glastonbury is home to the King of the Fairies. Strange being live beneath the Tor. There are barrow downs and weird things happening around there.

And I swear when I drive along the M40 through Oxfordshire I catch glimpses of strange folk, possibly elves. You have to believe they are there in order to see them though. They have faded and they hide beneath their cloaks but I've seen them.
What you may be seeing Vee are the Sidhe, possibly a materialization of John Duncan's Riders of the Sidhe one of my favorite fantasy pictures.
Does lack of Elves in British history mean Middle Earth was not based on Britain?

AH, but the Elves were from Faerie. The British Isles were put in the Pot of Story, and when it was fished out, there were loads of Elves on it!!!!!
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