Lord of all posted :
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Also I said before anything else that the Lands of Sun were also called the Gates of Morning, so in theory if I had quotes mentioning one of the names it would have been sufficient.
Following your reasoning : if I claim that Supercalifragilisticexpialadociousness or Whatever-whateverland is also called the Gates of Morning and in order to prove this assertion only give a quote containing 'Gates of Morning', that would be sufficient? Odd reasoning.
Lord of all posted :
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You said you had never heard of lands east of ME so i give you lots of info and quotes, and still you find fault. Grondmaster posts one quote and your completely satisfied.
That's because Grondy actually bothered to provide a quote containing the term "Land of the Sun", which you did not, for some unknown reason.
Anyway, time to go back on topic :
what did you vote for and why?
Well, obviously from what I've said I voted for "Maia" but on reflection, since the quetion is "what is he?" not "what do you think is his nature?" the only really possible right answer is "enigma" as the Professor called him.
In response to two specific questions of nomenclature:
"Outside" is a rather vague term; it could mean from the Void, but it could also mean "outside of Middle-earth" in which case it could be Valinor, and thus when Morgoth returned to Middle-earth following his captivity it could have been him. Or it could have been his first arrival after creation. Or it could have been Saurons return after the Atalante (though I believe Numenor IS, technically, part of Middle-earth, it isn't connected to any other part of it. ) Or his return from wherever he was (Halls of Mandos? 'Cos I really don't see Mandos letting him out of there) after his death at Barad-dur. "Outside" could mean various things depending on the context, and the context doesn't precisely focus which is meant in the quote under consideration. For those who would say, "oh, c'mon! it can only mean one thing and has only ever been understood to mean one thing" note the second response:
The Dark Lord. Obviously, this means Morgoth; he is the Dark Lord who came from Outside, unless I'm arguing someone else is. Well, allow me to offer a quote of my own:
"One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."
Guess how the blurb on the back of my Ballantine edition of TRotK starts? "While the evil might of the Dark Lord...."
So, yeah, the mere phrase "the Dark Lord" doesn't definitively identify the person as Morgoth, and even if it did Morgoth came to Middle-earth from elsewhere on two occasions. Both whom is meant and when is impossible to establish on the quoted text alone, and that's all we have to date Bombadil. Personally, I don't think anyone was in Ea before Morgoth, honestly.
Well they were Morambar, Tom Bombadil at the least.
Sauron was the Dark Lord in the Second and Third Age, that why your quote above says the Dark Lord.
However when Tom says 'Dark' Lord he is talking about Morgoth. Becuase in the quote he gives examples (before acorn, rain, Elves) and as each goes on it goes further back in time. So he would not say:
'Before the Acorn, Before the Rain, Before the Elves past west, before Sauron became the Dark Lord, becuase that was way after the previous examples'!
He say 'Before the Dark Lord came from outside' - meaning only one thing - before Melkor descended into Ea, nothing else.
Next time then Vir i will not try to educate you, I will pass good quotes onto members who show gratitude.
Now that is an interesting point, Morambar. Dark Lord really is just an inherited title. And Tom does talk to Hobbits, so he could mean the Dark Lord whos ring they have with them. But I guess that depends on if he had seen the Ring at the time he says that.
Anyway, that's a whole other discussion, we really should take most of this to the TB thread. To stay on topic; I finally voted for "an engima", as I said above. But I like the spark of the Flame idea.
Likewise I voted for enigma. Tolkien himself says enigma, as there is nothing he can be classified as really considering he was before everything else in Ea.
Of course it should be enigma, as not only the Professor himself meant for, but anyone with half a brain who had looked in our threads about him would assume.
I absolutely am frustrated with Tom Bombadil. I don't mind so much that he doesn't fit into this or that category but the thing is, to me anyway is that he doesn't make any sense whatsoever and how can he be fatherless? He is indeed an enigma and I wish he would have stayed just the dolly of Priscilla.
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He is indeed an enigma and I wish he would have stayed just the dolly of Priscilla.
Maybe he DID exactly stay Priscilla's doll... I have the impression that Bombadil was included as some kind of "wink" towards his children... compared with the fact that JRRT had need of "an adventure along the way".
I can imagine the Professor telling young Priscilla bedtime stories about Tom Bombadil and perhaps this made him think to incorporate the jolly fellow in his books.
Now THAT dear Vir makes all the sense in the world.
I can breathe a sigh of relief now and not feel like banging my head against the wall trying to make sense of him or understand him.
Just playtime with Priscilla. Lovely.
thankyou
