Thread: What Happens After!!!!!!!?
Planet Tolkien is archived and no longer updated, but the forums remain browseable. We have established a Telegram group for old and new visitors to stay connected and discuss all things Tolkien.hi ummmm, does anyother conflicts happen after the death of sauron and if u go to the undying lands any one! like dwarf orc easterling black numenorians say they could get there what would happen they couldnt die there except by being killled?! thanks
After the death of Sauron, King Elessar (Aragorn), King Eormer, and their forces fought the various ragtag enemy forces driving any survivors them east and south from Gondor. Tthis is written about in Appendix A at the end of The Rerurn of the King.
I'll leave it for others to speak about any after-life of the un-free peoples of Middle-earth.
I'll leave it for others to speak about any after-life of the un-free peoples of Middle-earth.
During the Fourth Age, King Elessar, aided by King Eomer of Rohan, fights various enemies of Gondor, as mentioned in the Appendices, which state that the White Horse on the Green flew over many lands and on many seas until Eomer grew old. Since Eomer was in his 20s when he became king, he was then in his 80s or 90s when he died, sometime around SR1484, which is when Merry and Pippen left the Shire and went to Rohan to be with Eomer when he died.
As for going to the Undying Lands, after the death of King Elessar in SR1541, Legolas built a ship and passed over sea into the West, taking his friend Gimli the Dwarf. This favor was supposedly obtained for Gimli by the Lady Galadriel, who also supported Arwen's decision to send Frodo to Valinor in her place. Sam Gamgee also departed into the West in the year SR1481, after the death of his wife Rosie, which he was allowed to do since he was also a Ringbearer.
As for going to the Undying Lands, after the death of King Elessar in SR1541, Legolas built a ship and passed over sea into the West, taking his friend Gimli the Dwarf. This favor was supposedly obtained for Gimli by the Lady Galadriel, who also supported Arwen's decision to send Frodo to Valinor in her place. Sam Gamgee also departed into the West in the year SR1481, after the death of his wife Rosie, which he was allowed to do since he was also a Ringbearer.
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... and if u go to the undying lands any one! like dwarf orc easterling black numenorians say they could get there what would happen they couldnt die there except by being killled?!
... and if u go to the undying lands any one! like dwarf orc easterling black numenorians say they could get there what would happen they couldnt die there except by being killled?!
Normally Mortals would die in the Undying Lands even if they weren't killed. The land did not grant immortality, it was rather the land of immortals (though technically the Elves were not 'immortal' and, for example, could be slain of course).
Mortals cannot escape death and Elves cannot escape deathlessness (though I could mention exceptions). One could complicate this but I'm guessing basically you want to know whether or not a mortal will still age and die if he or she theoretically were allowed Oversea (to the ancient West).
As mentioned in The Silmarillion, the Elven messengers sent to Numenor by the Valar explained why Men were not allowed into the West. One of the reasons given was that, given their short life-span, compared to the Elves and the Powers themselves, they would die sooner, like moths drawn to a flame. It's easy to understand this: it would be like stepping into a time accelerator for Men - they would age faster in the Undying Lands, compared to aging in the Mortal Lands of the Sun.
That idea seems to be so, but in Tolkien's essay Aman (and Aman and Mortal Men) published in Morgoth's Ring, the idea put forth (as I read it anyway) is that mortals do not age faster in Aman.
Part of the essay Aman and Mortal Men reads...
Here the idea of withering even as a moth in a flame too bright is considered, and seems to not necessarily mean (in my opinion) a mortal actually ages faster in Aman.
Part of the essay Aman and Mortal Men reads...
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'If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy, what shall we say of Men? No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the N’men’reans they said they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright.'
'Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged. Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that 'mortal' children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of cohesion of hroa and fea, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though (...)'
'But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy...'
JRRT, Aman and Mortal Men
'If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy, what shall we say of Men? No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the N’men’reans they said they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright.'
'Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged. Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that 'mortal' children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of cohesion of hroa and fea, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though (...)'
'But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy...'
JRRT, Aman and Mortal Men
Here the idea of withering even as a moth in a flame too bright is considered, and seems to not necessarily mean (in my opinion) a mortal actually ages faster in Aman.
I think what Tolkien is refering to in that passage is that Men would grow and die in the same amount of time as they do in Mortal lands, but because life is Aman is enduring, to the man it would seem as though he is being driven fast, whilst everything around him remains still. Thus although he doesn't actually age any faster, the environment in which he is set would give that illusion. Thus the moth in a flame too bright analogy.
To the Elves in Middle-earth in the later ages we see the reverse. The Elves do not die as such, and therefore everything in Middle-earth other than themselves appears to be speeding along whilst they remain still.
The best example is the fellowship's stay in Lorien. They thought they had only stayed there a few days but it turns out to be a month (from memory). This is becuase Lorien is like Valinor. It is enduring and to the Mortal kinds, it would seem like everything stays still but they soon wither.
To the Elves in Middle-earth in the later ages we see the reverse. The Elves do not die as such, and therefore everything in Middle-earth other than themselves appears to be speeding along whilst they remain still.
The best example is the fellowship's stay in Lorien. They thought they had only stayed there a few days but it turns out to be a month (from memory). This is becuase Lorien is like Valinor. It is enduring and to the Mortal kinds, it would seem like everything stays still but they soon wither.
As Legolas says: 'Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; 'but change and growth is not in all things and places alike.' The Great River
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'But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy...'
'But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy...'
Ah, so if the rumours about Gimli journeying to Aman after the death of King Elessar the Terrible are true, it seems Beardie wouldn't have had much time to rejoice in seeing the Lady Galadriel again.
What a very pleasant thought.
Maybe she even lured him to Aman on purpose, just to see him getting snuffed out like a candle. Women...
Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise are also admitted to the Undying Lands, supposedly to be healed of their experience in bearing the One Ring. According to the Middle-Earth Encyclopedia (sorry, forgot the author's name) Frodo is supposedly still alive in Aman. Personally, I doubt it: those three did carry the Ring and did use it, but I strongly doubt that it conferred immortality on them. I think they went there and died peacefully, if not happily.
Here's another thought that just occurred to me:
Luthien was actually Half-Elven as well as Half-Maian, so she gave up a lot more than any other Elf did when she chose Mortality. But even then, I think she died before she would have, and Beren as well, and this is because they had the Silmaril with them. As is mentioned in The Silmarillion, it is said that the Silmaril hastened their end, because the beauty of Luthien while she wore the Jewel was too great for Mortal lands.
This brings up an interesting point. What if there actually IS something about the Undying Lands that is dangerous to Mortal Men? Some kind of radiation perhaps? Something that can extend their lives but is all the more dangerous because of that because their Nature isn't designed to handle it. (See my threads about the Gift Of Iluvatar.)
On the other hand, it's mentioned in Akallabeth that Ar-Pharazon the Golden and the Mortal warriors who had set foot on the Undying Lands were buried under falling hills,and lie in the Caves of the Forgotten until the Dagor Dagorath, the Last Battle and the Day of Doom. I take this to mean that. if they weren't killed by those falling hills, then they're probably still alive in those caves, but unable to escape.
Luthien was actually Half-Elven as well as Half-Maian, so she gave up a lot more than any other Elf did when she chose Mortality. But even then, I think she died before she would have, and Beren as well, and this is because they had the Silmaril with them. As is mentioned in The Silmarillion, it is said that the Silmaril hastened their end, because the beauty of Luthien while she wore the Jewel was too great for Mortal lands.
This brings up an interesting point. What if there actually IS something about the Undying Lands that is dangerous to Mortal Men? Some kind of radiation perhaps? Something that can extend their lives but is all the more dangerous because of that because their Nature isn't designed to handle it. (See my threads about the Gift Of Iluvatar.)
On the other hand, it's mentioned in Akallabeth that Ar-Pharazon the Golden and the Mortal warriors who had set foot on the Undying Lands were buried under falling hills,and lie in the Caves of the Forgotten until the Dagor Dagorath, the Last Battle and the Day of Doom. I take this to mean that. if they weren't killed by those falling hills, then they're probably still alive in those caves, but unable to escape.
The Caves of the Forgotten where Ar-pharazon and the mariners of Numenor were sent to refers to a metiphorical place, where they will one day return from at the Last Battle and the Day of Doom at the End of Days. And on the plains of Valinor will fight against Melkor, who breaks through the Door to the Night, who has reclaimed much of his former strength which he had before the destruction of Illuin and Ormal. After which Arda is destroyed and the Second Music of the Ainur (in which Men partake) begins and sets to right all the evils of Melkor.
It is doubtful that Ar-Pharazon was litterally in a cave for an unknown amount of mellenia.
It is doubtful that Ar-Pharazon was litterally in a cave for an unknown amount of mellenia.
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I take this to mean that. if they weren't killed by those falling hills, then they're probably still alive in those caves, but unable to escape.
I take this to mean that. if they weren't killed by those falling hills, then they're probably still alive in those caves, but unable to escape.
Well, in that case, I hope they brought cards.
Frodo did die after passing over Sea I would say. In 1963 Tolkien explained:
In another letter Tolkien remarked that mortals in Aman '... cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' -- of free will, and leave the world.'
And in a text in Morgoth's Ring (specifically author's note 4 to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth), the special passing Oversea of mortals recorded in The Lord of the Rings is said to include: 'An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen' which is further compared to the death of Aragorn (it is noted that this kind of death Aragorn achieved without aid).
Incidentally the section I quoted (now quoted again for some humor regarding Gimli) which states: '... his whole life would last little more than one half-year' refers to the Valian Year, or 144 Sun Years (in this essay I VY = 144 SYs).
That is why a Man could be said to die in less than one 'year' in Valinor, even though he still lives say 85 years or whatever.
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'Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him -- if that could be done before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth or within Time.' JRRT, letter 246, draft to Eileen Elgar
'Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him -- if that could be done before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth or within Time.' JRRT, letter 246, draft to Eileen Elgar
In another letter Tolkien remarked that mortals in Aman '... cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' -- of free will, and leave the world.'
And in a text in Morgoth's Ring (specifically author's note 4 to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth), the special passing Oversea of mortals recorded in The Lord of the Rings is said to include: 'An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen' which is further compared to the death of Aragorn (it is noted that this kind of death Aragorn achieved without aid).
Incidentally the section I quoted (now quoted again for some humor regarding Gimli) which states: '... his whole life would last little more than one half-year' refers to the Valian Year, or 144 Sun Years (in this essay I VY = 144 SYs).
That is why a Man could be said to die in less than one 'year' in Valinor, even though he still lives say 85 years or whatever.
I do not think that anyone is saying that Mortals become immortal in Valinor. The evidence to the contrary is immense, from everything stating that the gift of Men could not be taken away, to the quotes (such as Galin provided) stating that mortals will die in Valinor, to the fact that only Tuor was ever named amoung the Eldar race, who experienced immortality.
They die indeed, but the fear of that death, which Morgoth planted in the beginning when he journeyed amoung the first Eru-begotten men to awake in Hildorien, would be taken away in Valinor and the mortal in question would experience death such as it was intended, and would see it as a boon.
They die indeed, but the fear of that death, which Morgoth planted in the beginning when he journeyed amoung the first Eru-begotten men to awake in Hildorien, would be taken away in Valinor and the mortal in question would experience death such as it was intended, and would see it as a boon.
I was just responding to: 'According to the Middle-Earth Encyclopedia (sorry, forgot the author's name) Frodo is supposedly still alive in Aman.' -- not that Imladmorgul agreed with this (indeed he said he doubted it), or anyone posting so far had agreed with it; but some people reading here yet do not post, and 'Encyclopedias' tend to carry weight (for some).
Don't worry Galin, my post wasn't directly aimed at you. If that was indeed was the supposed 'Encyclopedia' stated I am glad never to have looked in it.
Following on from what was stated earlier about Luthien with the Silmaril being too great for mortal lands... Its possible that Middle-earth, being the land most tainted by evil, can only tolerate some much 'Light' (as in good). Luthien with the Silmaril (half Elven, half Maiar, and with a Silmaril containing the Light before Days) was simply too good a thing to survive that long on a Land so corrupted by Evil. Thus it was a fleeting thing, such as would be the opposite in Valinor. Although Valinor itself is not untouched by evil, or at the least the memory of evil, it is itself a Land of Light. If something mortal, which cannot tolerate such Light for extended periods (like the mortal lands couldn't tolerate Luthien with sil), this would have the same effect.
Concerning L’thien, I think her untimely death has more to do with her transformation from 'immortal' to 'mortal' - maybe she died of a heart attack when she saw the very first rinkle appearing on her brow.
Then again, to Elves the lives of Men always seem fleeting. So it's no wonder D’or'd feel the same way about his mother (without going into the whole issue regarding D’or's heritage).
Then again, to Elves the lives of Men always seem fleeting. So it's no wonder D’or'd feel the same way about his mother (without going into the whole issue regarding D’or's heritage).
I'm glad to see that I can contribute something to the discussions to keep them going. I'm going to LOVE this site! Thanks again for having me here.
With respect to the Silmaril hastening their end and etc, I did some external digging and it appears that CJRT did not invent the idea (not that I suspected he did, though he might have altered the wording just a bit). That said, the history of the 'connection' here actually goes a long way back to the 'curse' rather.
In The Lost Tales Gwendelin's (forerunner of Melian) horror at seeing the Necklace of the Dwarves was so great that L’thien took it off (but Beren kept it). And in a synopsis for a projected revision of the Lost Tales the Nauglafring 'brought sickness to Tin’viel'
In the Sketch of the Mythology (or 'original Silmarillion' written c. 1926-30) Melian warns of the curse on the gold and of the Silmaril, and the treasure is drowned (but Beren keeps the necklace secretly) -- the fading of L’thien follows immediately on the statement that the necklace was kept, but no explicit connection is made. And at this point L’thien is to fade: 'even as the Elves of later days had done.' In the Quenta of 1930 L’thien had become not an Elf with a peculiar destiny, but now a mortal woman.
In the constructed Silmarillion this poetic idea begins with 'But the Wise have said', and in the only place I could find where it might have come from (so far anyway), Tolkien began the idea with 'mayhap'...
Tale of Years (1951-52) in manuscript : Year 505 [> 503] '... But it is believed that in this year L’thien and Beren passed away, for they were never heard of again on earth: mayhap the Silmaril hastened their end, for the flame of the beauty of L’thien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands'
Again, unless I have missed something so far, this seems to be the text used by Christopher and Guy Kay for the published version in 1977. In Tolkien's typescript D of the Tale of Years this poetic statement is not repeated in any case -- it was merely said there that Melian brought the Nauglamir to Beren and L’thien, the Sons of Feanor dared not assail L’thien; and in the autumn of year 503 a messenger brought by night the Silmaril to Dior in Doriath.
Difficult to say whether the typescript 'rejects' the idea or omits it by compression, though CJRT appears to have used it for The Fall of Doriath (perhaps too beautiful to leave out in any case).
In The Lost Tales Gwendelin's (forerunner of Melian) horror at seeing the Necklace of the Dwarves was so great that L’thien took it off (but Beren kept it). And in a synopsis for a projected revision of the Lost Tales the Nauglafring 'brought sickness to Tin’viel'
In the Sketch of the Mythology (or 'original Silmarillion' written c. 1926-30) Melian warns of the curse on the gold and of the Silmaril, and the treasure is drowned (but Beren keeps the necklace secretly) -- the fading of L’thien follows immediately on the statement that the necklace was kept, but no explicit connection is made. And at this point L’thien is to fade: 'even as the Elves of later days had done.' In the Quenta of 1930 L’thien had become not an Elf with a peculiar destiny, but now a mortal woman.
In the constructed Silmarillion this poetic idea begins with 'But the Wise have said', and in the only place I could find where it might have come from (so far anyway), Tolkien began the idea with 'mayhap'...
Tale of Years (1951-52) in manuscript : Year 505 [> 503] '... But it is believed that in this year L’thien and Beren passed away, for they were never heard of again on earth: mayhap the Silmaril hastened their end, for the flame of the beauty of L’thien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands'
Again, unless I have missed something so far, this seems to be the text used by Christopher and Guy Kay for the published version in 1977. In Tolkien's typescript D of the Tale of Years this poetic statement is not repeated in any case -- it was merely said there that Melian brought the Nauglamir to Beren and L’thien, the Sons of Feanor dared not assail L’thien; and in the autumn of year 503 a messenger brought by night the Silmaril to Dior in Doriath.
Difficult to say whether the typescript 'rejects' the idea or omits it by compression, though CJRT appears to have used it for The Fall of Doriath (perhaps too beautiful to leave out in any case).
Extrapolating from the above, perhaps a fitting epitaph for L’thien would have been: "And I thought diamonds were a girl's best friend".
I find the idea of a Silmaril "poisoning" somebody peculiar, to say the least. It is mentioned in the Silmarillion that no evil could touch them (and indeed Old Grumpy scorched his hands when he laid hands upon them). But indeed perhaps they were never made to be worn by somebody... IIRC F’anor only wore them during the Elfies' Festival in Aman.
I also have trouble fathoming L’thien coming under the Doom of Mandos.
But again, we should not fault L’thien for this... when it comes to jewelry, women tend to get a bit irrational.
I find the idea of a Silmaril "poisoning" somebody peculiar, to say the least. It is mentioned in the Silmarillion that no evil could touch them (and indeed Old Grumpy scorched his hands when he laid hands upon them). But indeed perhaps they were never made to be worn by somebody... IIRC F’anor only wore them during the Elfies' Festival in Aman.
I also have trouble fathoming L’thien coming under the Doom of Mandos.
But again, we should not fault L’thien for this... when it comes to jewelry, women tend to get a bit irrational.
Then I must indeed be a different sort of elf, I could care less about jewelry for the most part.
People, they are my forte.
About them I can be quite irrational until I take a trip to a secluded place in Middle-Earth I am not normally used to going to. I sit and think and for instance all that Vir posted will keep me occupied for a great long time. I have no answers, for I am not knowledgable enough. But I do love to listen to the rest of you discuss things.
People, they are my forte.
About them I can be quite irrational until I take a trip to a secluded place in Middle-Earth I am not normally used to going to. I sit and think and for instance all that Vir posted will keep me occupied for a great long time. I have no answers, for I am not knowledgable enough. But I do love to listen to the rest of you discuss things.
Another unexplained mystery is how Bilbo, Frodo, Shadowfax, Gimli or in fact any of the Elves were able to survive the boat trip to Valinor at all since the fashion of the world changed ages ago. The straight road basically now travels through space! The Sil states what happens those mortals unfortunate enough to accidentally find the straight road to the undying lands and it doesn't sound survivable to me. Basically as you come into sight of the Lonely Isle and the grey rain curtail draws back to asphyxiate from lack of oxygen.
As all the free peoples of Middle Earth are air breathing I’m not sure how anyone could get to Valinor....
I’msure the professor would have an explanation, or any of the more learned Tolkenites on this site.
I think there is no great need to question this from a scientific standpoint. Eru removed Aman and Tol Eressea from the world (hardly scientific in itself), and we know that these places still exist within time (Eru is outside time), and sustain life.
Or...
'the exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressea after their "removal" must be dubious and unexplained', as must the question of 'how "mortals" could go there at all.'
JRRT, Reincarnation of Elves, Morgoth's Ring
That works well enough for me anyway 
I wonder if Christopher came upon any further information in the last year or so to give us a clue or two more about how mortals indeed and Shadowfax could live at all there. This matter of oxygen, the peoples of Middle-Earth always needing it, well this is a matter of great import and so I wonder how this dilemma is reconciled, ineed if it even is.
