Week 18 - February 9th
This week we will discuss Chapter 2: The Shadow of the Past.
I will be away, however, the class will be lead by PT Council Members.
See you in Bilblos-Study Sunday 9pm GMT (4pm ET)
Thread: Week 17 - 21Fellowship of the Ring - Book I
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Nell, tried to send the info to me and the attachments did not work, I don't feel qualified to teach it. But I will try. I will definetly need help from the other council members.
I am going out of town on a family emergency, I will not be around for the class. Sorry folks, not sure what the rest of the council has planned. Class may be cancelled until Nell gets back.
I think myself and Grondy are still up for covering for Rednell. Unless some emergency comes up in the meantime, I shall be there at the normal time.
Log for class is as follows:
Quote:
[21:07] Okay, let us begin our study of the second chapter of FotR
[21:07] The Shaddow of the Past
[21:07] Hi Sam
[21:08] There were roumors of things strange things happening, what were some of them?
[21:08] Elves leaving ME, lots of Dwarves heading West
[21:08] Trolls and a walking tree
[21:09] There terrible creatures about
[21:09] Rumours of a dark lord in Mordor
[21:09] what they said....
[21:09] and the trolls were armed and not quite so dim witted as before
[21:10] What was the attitude of the Hobbits toward these roumors
[21:10] they heard them, but didn't pay them much mind
[21:10] Or they rejected them as fantasy
[21:10] Something to talk about around the fire place... It was happening elsewhere so they were not really bothered
[21:10] They brushed them off and thought they were folly
[21:11] yes I agree
[21:11] * Joins: Airecristiel (moonglow_3@e15dd1c3.dea5ea3e.com.hmsk)
[21:11] Welcome Airecristiel - Airecristiel hugs everybody and says "Hello!"
[21:11] * Barliman sets mode: +v Airecristiel
[21:11] what they said...
[21:11] they even called the rumours "fairytales for kids"
[21:12] Why do you think Tolkien introduces us to the rising of the Dark Lord just as roumors in the Shire?
[21:12] hi Aire. the hobbits are not used to rumours
[21:12] Because the shire is our safe place
[21:12] because the book (or most of it) is from the hobbits perspective
[21:12] because he wants us to see where the hobbits are coming from
[21:12] He wants us to see it from the Hobbits point of view
[21:12] I think anything that occured outside of the Shire was of little interest to the Hobbits... They were very isolated
[21:12] they had very little contact with others outside the Shire
[21:12] It provides atransition between the bucolic Shire setting and the later serious themes, i think
[21:13] yes definately. we can fit into the Shire better than other places, so it does give us that transition
[21:13] It also make the stories more ominous that they are not given credibility
[21:13] bucolic?? what's that?
[21:13] Because four of his main characters are from here, he needs to show the reader how strange the world would seem to them
[21:13] Sorry -- like farming, countryside settings
[21:13] ok, tnx
[21:13] Yes to emphasize how prorevted the Hobbits are from the surrounding world
[21:13] it sets up the later revelation of the ring nicely, also...there are all these rumors, and then it all becomes real
[21:14] Danger doesn't truly happen till they reach the Old Forest.
[21:14] they meet the first wraith before that...
[21:14] they don't care for anything but thei comfort
[21:14] they even pass throught a gate, in that chapter, animating the transition
[21:15] Good point, Komosot
[21:15] And they don't like Gandalf's influence on Frodo
[21:15] Gandalf caused Bilbo to crack and is sending Frodo the same way
[21:16] They don't like him except for his fireworks
[21:16] Honestly, i think this whole point we are making ties along with the fact that Tom Bombadil is the reader. But that's a different story.
[21:16] Sorry, what gate do they pass through?
[21:16] yes that is interesting Komosot
[21:16] that metal gate...in the Old forest
[21:16] The gate into the Old Forest
[21:16] not in this chapter
[21:16] The gate in High Hay
[21:16] Oh okay
[21:16] or that stone gate that simply "dissapears"
[21:17] in the barrowdowns
[21:17] So Gandalf returns
[21:17] But this is the chapter that starts everything moving to the serious realities of later
[21:17] which is that Ghan?
[21:17] He returns briefly over the years to keep his eye on Frodo
[21:18] I think to see what influence the ring is having on him
[21:18] after many years away with a tale of the ring, that it is REALLY dangerous
[21:18] When ever he visits the other Hobbits start gossiping again
[21:18] Tolkien had a problem, he had to turn a childrens book "the hobbit" into an adult sequel, that is way we see the obvious transition from the shire too the Old Forest.
[21:19] It's during this time that he has the Rangers guard the Shire too
[21:19] This is also the chapter in which the Ring is revealed as something extraordinary
[21:19] He's gone for something like 9 years isn't he?
[21:19] yes grondy, when he comes back the last time he is almost sure it's the one ring
[21:19] Isildur's scroll
[21:19] He just has to confirm it
[21:19] yes he was gone 9 years to pin down what the ring was
[21:20] how did he confirm it
[21:20] yes Komosot , that is a good point (about kids book to adult book) hence Tolkien's need to bring us into a book that begins with the same atompshere as The Hobbit
[21:20] Isildur's scroll...
[21:20] put it in the fire
[21:20] He threw the ring in the fire?
[21:20] During that time he got a hold of Gollum
[21:20] Placing it in the fire revealed the hidden script
[21:20] and saw the markings
[21:20] watching Frodo and Bilbo
[21:20] wasn't it aragorn who caught Gollum?
[21:20] Right Sam, and the Old Forest, is that gate that teleports us into the adult gate. Tom is our guide.
[21:20] Good point, sam. that aroused his suspicions
[21:21] Yes, but Gandalf did question him
[21:21] the Woodelves caught Gollum I thought
[21:21] no
[21:21] Aragorn caught Gollum and Gandalf questioned him
[21:21] The woodelves kept Gollum prisoned
[21:21] they held Gollum "prisoned"
[21:21] Aragorn captured him in the Dead Marshes and they took him to Mirkwood
[21:21] yes you're right Thingolfin
[21:21] The woodelves accidently released Gollum, as well.
[21:22] Gandalf got his story after much hard work
[21:22] Legolas decribes Gollums escape being contributed to the wood Elves "pity"
[21:22] They did that out of kindness... they pitied him
[21:22] at the council
[21:22] yes
[21:22] * Joins: Delidia (pt@bd1504e3.mrdnct.adsl.2836931f.net.hmsk)
[21:22] Welcome Delidia -
[21:22] * Barliman sets mode: +v Delidia
[21:22] hey
[21:22] peoples
[21:22] lol
[21:22] that was one of the Elves failing points pity
[21:22] hi Delidia
[21:22] No, they took him for a walk out of pity, but then lots of orcs came and as the woodelves were trying to kill them, Gollum excaped.
[21:22] what we talkin bout?
[21:22] He escaped because they let him out now and then to climb the trees
[21:23] um...?
[21:23] escaped*
[21:23] But pity plays a constant role in allowing Gollum to fulfil his purpose
[21:23] This is a lesson about chapter 2 of FotR
[21:23] In UT it says that sauron purposely sent an attack on Mirkwood hoping to free Gollum.
[21:23] The second Chapter of FotR Delidia
[21:23] o
[21:23] ok
[21:23] Del: we're talking about the second chapter of FotR
[21:23] thanx
[21:23] Gollum is still captive people
[21:23] Komosot, that's the orcs that were attacking the woodelves on their walk with Gollum.
[21:24] ok, lets stay in ch 2 folks..
[21:24] right Aire.
[21:24] That is for a latter discussion
[21:24] At this time, yes
[21:24] lala
[21:24] o sry
[21:24] yes, back to chapter two.
[21:24] ok
[21:24] chapter 2 makes you want to talk about chap 3-6, lol
[21:24] What did Gandalf say about pity
[21:24] 
[21:24] 
[21:24] No Smiles please
[21:24] pity was what stopped bilbo from killing gollum
[21:25] he said Pity is what saved Bilbo from the Ring
[21:25] pity stayed bilbo's hand
[21:25] Pity will play a part in Frodo's part of the Quest
[21:25] What did Frodo think about Gollum
[21:25] Don't be so quick to deal out death in judgement
[21:25] Frodo did pity him
[21:25] he thought he deserved death
[21:26] in the begining
[21:26] even wise cannot see all ends
[21:26] when he asw him
[21:26] *saw
[21:26] Frodo found him disgusting at first.
[21:26] Frodo couldn't understand why Bilbo didn't kill him
[21:26] Indeed, Komosot
[21:26] that he was as bad as an orc and deserved to die
[21:26] good word: disgusting
[21:26] * Joins: Littleirena (pt@80ec8844.vc.5eb2c41d.net.hmsk)
[21:26] Welcome Littleirena -
[21:26] * Barliman sets mode: +v Littleirena
[21:26] hey
[21:26] hullo
[21:26] hi Irena
[21:26] Hi Irina
[21:26] Hi irena
[21:26] how's the class going?
[21:27] um...
[21:27] I think one of Tolkien's greta skills was to establish the foundations of later themes -- the pity thing is one example
[21:27] class is going great! for me anyway. yes Ghan I agree
[21:27] another line on pity: gandalf meant that since bilbo started his ownership of the ring with pity, that was the reason it hurt him so little.
[21:28] I think many of the themes of LotR are stated in the second chap. of FotR
[21:28] it is a sort of overall view
[21:28] agree
[21:28] That's why it's so difficult to stick to this chapter
[21:28] It is also interesting that the time-scale of Ch2 covers years whereas Ch1 was almost all present action
[21:28] hey Ghan
[21:28] !
[21:28] how are you?
[21:29] yes that's true Ghan
[21:29] Chap. 2 is mostly dialouge
[21:29] Cool! TY let's stick to the topic LOL
[21:29] Notice pity and Mercy are personified and that Pity minimized the pain Bilbo would have to endure because of the ring. Bilbo was meant to find the ring and not by its maker, then who wanted Bilbo to find the ring?
[21:29] Eru
[21:29] huh?
[21:29] yes
[21:29] Yes
[21:29] perhaps Eru
[21:29] ok...im zonein
[21:29] The ring wanted a new owner but it was Eru who chose Bilbo
[21:30] Was it the Ring? Was it part of Eru's plan?
[21:30] GOd works in mysterious ways...
[21:30] * Delidia is now known as Delidia_zoning
[21:30] he
[21:30] lol
[21:30] Yes, something happened that the ring did not intend
[21:30] lol
[21:30] sry
[21:30] the Ring is personified in Chap. 2, in the rest of the book it is not really
[21:31] personified
[21:31] Why didn't Eru just throw the ring in mount doom?
[21:31] um.....
[21:31] he had to work through people
[21:31] i dunno?
[21:31] well, he sort of did that, but through Bilbo and Frodo
[21:31] yeah yeah...
[21:31] hehe
[21:31] The fact that Gandalf says, " and that is an encouraging thought" indicates it was Eru I think
[21:31] I don't think Eru ever came into ME himself
[21:31] I thing Gandalf finds it "an encouraging thought", then he must see some other power at work besides the ring
[21:31] he worked through manwe and the other valars i think
[21:31] but doesn't the ring have a sort of personnality for itself, could it have wanted a different owner thanBilbo?
[21:31] Eru was incarnate
[21:32] the ring almost certainly wanted an owner other than Bilbo
[21:32] the ring wants Sauron to be its owner.
[21:32] But it didn't have many choices in the Shire
[21:32] remember Bilbo said it was hard to hold on to...slipped off all the time
[21:32] I imagine the ring saying "Dol!" when bilbo picks him up.
[21:32] I think it did Irena, but it was Eru who decided
[21:32] The music of the Ainur before time decided the fate of ME before the world even began... That is how Eru Manipulates things
[21:32] So it stuck with Bilbo for the time being
[21:33] it was almost like the Ring 'slept' until Sauron began sending out his thought from Mirkwood
[21:33] and Bilbo gave it up almost voluntarily
[21:33] and so took little hurt from it
[21:33] Yes Sam, the ring awoke when it sensed Sauron was back
[21:33] yes val, but I think it's up to man and elf to decide how it's gonna happen
[21:34] because he was not so easily corrupted by its power, and he had the guidance of Gandalf
[21:34] what if the ring was lost, and Gollum hadn't found it? would Sauron diminish and fade away eventually?
[21:34] yes, that is a good distinction Perwing: fate and how fate is carried out
[21:34] * Delidia_zoning is now known as Delidiabyebye
[21:34] The ring's reduced effcet of Bilbo is somehow parallel to its having no powewr over Tom. But I think it is just a part-animate extension of sauron himself
[21:34] that is interesting Ghan
[21:34] I don't think Sauron would have diminished if the Ring was never found...as long as it existed, so woul dhe
[21:34] would he*
[21:34] No, Sauron would live while the ring was in existance
[21:35] he'd just continue lurking around like he had been, scheming to gain power
[21:35] I think that Bilbo is resisting the Ring, the Ring is not really claiming Bilbo
[21:35] Gandalf says himself Sauron will win with or without the ring, if it's not destroyed...
[21:35] I agree, Chika. But he has greater power with the ring
[21:35] bARLIMAN JUST CALLED ME A GOOFBALL
[21:35] Barliman
[21:35] *
[21:35] Even if Gollum hadn't found it somebody else eventually would.
[21:35] yes chika, I agree, he could never come into full power w/o the Ring, but without it he could not die
[21:35] and he prefers having it(bilbo)
[21:36] It was his anchor to ME
[21:36] Why couldn't Gandalf, just use the ring to defeat Sauron?
[21:36] Bilbo prefers having the Ring Irena?
[21:36] he could, but then he'd become a dark lord in his own right
[21:36] the little.......BEEP
[21:36] it would corrupt Gandalf
[21:36] It would corrupt everything he did
[21:36] the ring is evil, it turns everything to evil
[21:36] because sauron had put a lot of his powers into it
[21:36] Gandalf was too powerful
[21:36] He could have, but the ring would have corrupted him and made him a new dark lord
[21:36] ya, Sam- he doesn't give it up easyly
[21:36] HE CALLED ME STUPID!
[21:36] Gandalf had too much powers, he would be corrupted and be worse than Sauron.
[21:36] I get it now Irena, thank you
[21:36] aarrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh
[21:36] gandalf would use it to do good, but the ring would corrupt him eventually
[21:37] yw- at least that is what i think
[21:37] Gandalf would have become more powerful than Sauron
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