Aulr began this thread with the following post



Virumor replied

Beleriand was just a part of Middle-Earth until it was destroyed after the War of Wrath : it sunk underneath the Sea; the only part of Beleriand that remained after First Age was Lindon i believe (part of Ossiriand) and the Blue Mountains.

Hmmm.....after closer inspecting of the map of Beleriand and Middle-Earth it does make sense....but wouldn’t Ered Luin(Beleriand) be if then Misty Mountains? Because Khazad-Dum and Belegost I mean.....

The Ered Luin on the East side of Beleriand is the same Ered Luin mountain range on the west side of Middle Earth, and so Beleriand was the land that lay to the western side of Middle earth if you crossed the mountains.

Virumor is correct in saying that Lindon is what is left of Ossiriand. Nogrod and Belegost were destroyed at this time, most likely when the Ered Luin was split in two by the Gulf of Lhun. You've lost me with this one Aule. Angmar, home of the Witch-king is located at the northern end of the Misty Mountains. It is hundreds of miles from any sea, and so nowhere near any islands.

If you look on your maps of Middle Earth, however, you will see a small island just off the coast of Lindon in the north, called Himling. This is the top of the Himring Hill defended by Maedhos before the sinking of Beleriand. The Isle of Balar lay South of Arvernien in Beleriand, hundreds of miles from Angmar. I cannot find anything about its fate, but I assume it sank with the rest of Beleriand.

Oh yeah....sorry about that Val....I did a mistake.... Angmar is far away from the coast!

In the revised edition of the late Karen Wynn Fonstad's the Atlas of Middle-earth on page 37, her Introduction to the Second Age of Arda, she states:
She shows these Islands on her Map of the 'Second Age of Arda' on pg 38. She also wrote in the notes that she referenced the Houghton Mifflin editions of the above volumes. I haven't checked to see if she was correct, but she hasn't let me down to date.

As Grondmaster says the only Isle still around in the Second Age are Tol Fuin, Tol Morwen, Himling and Tolfalas far in the Great Gulf near Gondor as is demonstarted in 'the Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth'. These are the only remnants of Beleriand in the First Age save Lindon. The Blue mountains have never been part of Beleriand they were simply the Eastern Border.

Beleriand in the first Age:

HERE

You will notice that Beleriand comprises mainly of the lands West of the Ered Luin which do not exist in the Third and Second Ages.

You are right to a certain degree Galin. Tolkien's works take priority over other peoples works on middle earth just like Tolkien's later idears take priority over his former ones. However this quote:

Beleriand -- 'The 'lost land of [the] Elder Days (of which Lindon was all that remained in the Third Age)' JRRT, Unfinished Index for The Lord of the Rings

Does not prove a point. As you have stated yourself we know Tol Morwen survived in the Third Age and that is not stated in the quote above so should we assume Tol Morwen did not exist as well in the Third Age? Therefore it is clear that the quote provided is clearly not including the few unpopulated islands that were around at the Third Age. Here is a couple of quotes to show the isle's of Himling and Tol Fuin were indeed parts of Beleriand that were not drowned in the wave:

"The mistaken inclusion of Rhudaur alone has been corrected by the addition of Cardolan and Arthedain, and I have shown the little island of Himling off the far north-western coast, which appears on one of my father's sketch-maps and on my own first draft. Himling was the earlier form of Himring (the great hill on which Maedhros son of F’anor had his fortress in The Silmarillion), and though the fact is nowhere referred to it is clear that Himring's top rose above the waters that covered drowned Beleriand. Some way to the west of it was a larger island named Tol Fuin, which must be the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin." Unfinished Tales

"Of the size and number of these 'great isles' we are not told. On one of my father's sketchmaps made for The Lord of the Rings there is the island of Himling, i.e. the summit of the Hill of Himring, and also Tol Fuin, i.e. the highest part of Taur-na-Fuin (see Unfinished Tales pp. 13 - 14); and in The Silmarillion (p. 230) it is said that the stone of the Children of Hurin and the grave of Morwen above Cabed Naeramarth stands on Tol Morwen 'alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar'." Shaping of Middle-earth

"After the 'breaking of the North' in the Great Battle, the shape of the North-west of Middle-earth was changed. Nearly all Beleriand was drowned in the Sea. Taur na Fuin became an Island. The mountains of Eredwethion &c. became small isles (so also Himling)." Treason of Isengard

"On the other hand the statement that Eredlindon was now at no point further than 200 miles from the Sea agrees well with that map,(17) and we meet here an apparently unique reference to the isles of Tol Fuin and Himling, which are shown on it.(18)" Treason of Isengard

There are a few more but that is about the jist of it. Clearly Himling and Tol Fuin does exist as Isle's in the Third Age, as does Tol Morwen and Tolfalas in the south but are not really worth a mention.

You can be sure that if there was a later map approved by Tolkien concerning whether these islands really did exist or not then Karen wynn fonstadd would have used it.
Just becuase the islands are not mentioned in later texts does not mean they did not exist or that it is a contradiction to earlier texts.

It is clear what your point is Galin. What your basically saying is this:

Those islands are not inlcluded in later drafts only earlier ones so we shouldn't really classify them as solid evidence.

That is fair enough. I do not say for certain that these islands were what Tolkien wished to be in his later thoughts. However what i am saying is We KNOW Tolkien did ONCE wish for these islands to be, therefore just becuase he did not mention them in later texts does not mean that he had discarded with the idear of them. Why would he bother mentioning them more than he did? They were uninhabited ancient reminders of places in the First Age that did nothing in later ages. The fact that Tolkien bothers mentioning them at all is wonder enough, without him later contradicting there existance.

The Atlas of Tolkien's middle-earth I assume you don't have. If you do decide to purchase it you will see that Karen Wynn Fonstadd only maps and says things that are complete speculation with warning to the reader. Seeing as she clearly thought the evidence supporting the existance of the islands was sufficient enough to map them it would be better to assume they exist and be willing to change mind if later proven otherwise than vise versa.
This applies with many aspects of Tolkien's works. It is best to think thus:

If it did exist in early drafts, except it with the later ones unless proved otherwise.

If you only accept details which are published explicitedly by Tollkien in his latest drafts you will unfortunatley be excluding some fundermental idears and miss out on some interesting tales. The Dagor Dagorath for instance you cannot really believe in seeing as its fullest account is given in the Shaping of Middle-earth. Perhaps you don't believe in the Tale of Adenel which tells of Men's first encounter with Melkor and how they were enslaved seeing as thats in Morgoth's ring.
The full account of Galadriel and Celeborn cannot really be true becuase its in UT. The tale of the five Istari mustn't be true seeing as its in UT. Basically you think anything that is in the HOME series and UT should not be counted as solid evidence.

I can understand your view on what is to be adhered to and what should be discarded and this can be both good and bad. On the one part what you do say comes from Tolkien's later publications so is generally right. But on the Other hand you may be discarding alot of idears that Tolkien did wish to happen but perhaps did not get the chance to publish in a suitable form.

Basically there IS evidence, perhaps not concrete, but evidence nonetheless, to show that Tol Fuin and Himling were indeed islands of the Third Age. Until I have seen something that remotely repels that idear (of which Nothing has been posted as yet) I take it as proof.

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but where T’rin Turambar was laid to rest was not drowned by the Valars wraith and the rising sea either. Although I doubt you coud considered it an island.

When delving I ran across across at least one early reference (IIRC) to Lindon and Beren & L’thien (keeping in mind your earlier post about Tol Galen Virumor). I can post it later maybe...

... unless you've lost interest here

Not at all... I figure as Tolkien didn't submerge the grave of T’rin, he would most certainly not do the same with the graves of Beren & L’thien...

Actually, the two star-crossed lovers were buried there when they died after their return from Mandos, but you of course knew that.

Tol Fuin and Himling:

So it clearly states that Tol fuin does exsists west of Himling and Lindon and didn't sink in the War of Wrath.

By the way I have never argued that Tolkien certainly abandoned the idea, though I have noted the 'possibility' he might have, and, though it would be no fault of CJRT's of course, JRRT might never have expressed this to anyone.

It's also perfectly possible that Tolkien viewed the omission of Himling in 1954 as a mistake, and although he didn't have it added later, perhaps the matter slipped his mind when he had the chance to add Himling to the P. Baynes map, for example.

Tol Galen doesn't exist after The War of Wrath. I got a map of Ossirialand in the Third Age and it doesn't exist. Look at this map now.
~The Sunkenlands~
It doesn't exist on it because of the Tumults of the First Age.

Namarie!

If you have a clearly more superior argument at hand with quotes conclusive he will then try to bombard the matter with long explanations and dates of different things.

Take this quote for example:

"I have shown the little island of Himling off the far north-western coast, which appears on one of my father's sketch-maps and on my own first draft. Himling was the earlier form of Himring (the great hill on which Maedhros son of F’anor had his fortress in The Silmarillion), and though the fact is nowhere referred to it is clear that Himring's top rose above the waters that covered drowned Beleriand. Some way to the west of it was a larger island named Tol Fuin, which must be the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin."

Christipher Tolkien clearly says that although Tolkien didn't specifically mention it, it is CLEAR that Himling did rise above the waters. Fair do's he doesn't give much of an explanation but we have his clear statement saying that it did.

In any case I give great weight to whatever Christopher Tolkien says, but it is also true that with respect to certain of Tolkien's shifting ideas even CJRT must sometimes guess, or simply might not know about (as he expresses in The History of Middle-Earth series at points).

We all make mistakes.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say here actually.

Tol Galen maybe exists according to this map (I think); not as an island of course, but I don't think that's what Virumor meant. I think (or guess) the question was more about the area that once included Tol Galen, and on the linked map at least, the area that included Tol Galen looks like it survives in Harlindon (this map even seems to show part of the river Adurant as surviving).

I don't have any recent editions of The Silmarillion, do newer versions include a scale of miles?

Interesting that the later Silmarillion map (War of the Jewels) shows a small line of mountains extending South from the main chain 'around' Tol Galen (not wholly around it to the South or West however). Christopher Tolkien remarks: 'L 14-15 The mountains on these squares, extending northward onto K-15, were pencilled in very rapidly, and those to the north of Tol Galen were possibly cancelled.'

I was wondering if any of these mountains appear in later editions (mine date from the 1970s)

Just to mention it: 'It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrow Downs were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain, before they crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand, of which Lindon is all that now remains.' Appendix A

Of course this need not mean Himling doesn't exist, and is a general enough statement.

Hmmm, Tol Fuin seems hardly 'tiny' I think

From the very start I have capitulated the easy possibility that the islands in question are simply not under consideration in certain passages.

Anyone have anything on the two Tol Galen questions I posed today?

This part:



And I mean 'on the map' of course, with respect to a scale of miles.