Thread: Morgoth's Domicile
Planet Tolkien is archived and no longer updated, but the forums remain browseable. We have established a Telegram group for old and new visitors to stay connected and discuss all things Tolkien.<< [1] [2]
Well did he cut of his foot?? I just thought he stabbed that black foot and the black juice came out and we all sang: HALLELUJAH!!!
He sure did cut off his foot.
Hmmm....I still can’t believe that he cut the foot of when he got his scull crushed by Morgoths other foot....I think in desperation he just stabbed it....because I have no recollection of Morgoth being one footed!
His skull crushed ? No, Morgoth put Fingolfin under his foot and despite the fact that Fingolfin's body was broken, he still hacked off Morgoth's foot as a final act.
I believe virumor is correct, Aule. Fingolfin hacked of Morgoth's foot as a final act of defiance. Gave me chills when I read it.
Read a bit further : it says somewhere later on that Morgoth from that day on had never healing wounds caused by Silmarils, Thoronder and Fingolfin -- it also mentions he has one foot from that day on, if i remember it well.
Here is it, mate :
"No Orc dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made."
Doesn't this get it right ?
"No Orc dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made."
Doesn't this get it right ?
Hewn means chopped, like with an axe. Which is more maiming than tripped or kicked. I will give you that he still had both feet after his battle with Fingolfin, but one was hacked quite deeply causing Morgoth to be lame. Then in the battle with the Valar he lost his feet, they were chopped from under him. Of course, in the final battle he probably will have a new or regenerated body with new feet so that he can stand to fight the heros.
Is there anything in the letters or in HOME that gives us more clarification?
This discussion should pobablly be moved to Morgoth or Morgoth's Feet under Characters.
Is there anything in the letters or in HOME that gives us more clarification?
This discussion should pobablly be moved to Morgoth or Morgoth's Feet under Characters.
No actually Virumor... it only says that he could not walk right....but the Valar cut off his feet when they put Angainor on him again....That I am sure off...But he did have his feet left...only that it was such a wound that he walked halt on it....see??
Did the Valar cut off his foot ? Can you prove this with a quote, Aul’ ? I'm pretty sure Morgoth lost a foot, anyway but apparently i'm confused about the way he lost it.
In my minds eye, I'd always imagined the wound Fingolfin had given him had just been deep and had bled a lot, but had not actually cut the foot off. The bit about being ever halt on one foot thereafter, I'd taken to mean he'd forever had a limp after that.
Reading your quotes, however, Virumor, I can see how you come to interpret it as his foot being hacked off. The words Tolkien has used can be interpreted either way.
Reading your quotes, however, Virumor, I can see how you come to interpret it as his foot being hacked off. The words Tolkien has used can be interpreted either way.
Quote:
but the Valar cut off his feet when they put Angainor on him again.
I've never noticed that bit before Aule. Hold on.... but the Valar cut off his feet when they put Angainor on him again.
Quote:
but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face.
That must be the bit you were talking about... I always saw that to mean they had tripped him over or kicked his legs from under him, not chopped them off. It does say feet, however, and not foot, so I guess at that stage he still had both of them.but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face.
There's a Morgoth's feet thread?
Ok for the sake of arguement we'll say Morgoth was ham strung for some people and be-footedd for others. Otherwise it's going to turn in to another of the Balrogs wings threads and noone but Plastic wants that!
Morgoth was executed by Namo and his spirit fled to the void. He was a incarnate being by the end of the First Age thus his execution was possible. Read Myths Transformed (HoME 10) for more info.
The canonical on Turin coming back in the Dagorath and together with Eonwe (pre-cusor of Maia Warrior Fionwe. Fionwe is here a son of Manwe in a timeline in which the Valar were still capable of pro-creation.
Back to the 'Second Prophecy of Mandos' which is given in the Early Quenta Silmarillion. As I said it is doubtful whether Turin's slaying of Morgoth in the Dagorath is true, and rather it should belong with the earlier pre-LoTR Silmarillion work, although it is mentioned once or twice in the Latter Quentas.
Even though there is never (Or I belive) any abanonment of the Second Prophecy but one can assume that all evidence is weighed against the events mentioned actually taking place. As I have mentioned the Second Prophecy is not a authentic Noldorin text, in fact the 'Athrabeth' claims that there wasn't even a prophecy that Namo made concerning Arda's end:
This quote from the Valaquenat in the Published Silmarillion should disprove it too:
One can therefore assume that it was a Numenorean courruption of a Eldarin text, or idea, liek the ideas of the Sun and Moon coming from the Two Trees, but it seems this has little basis. I believe Andreth comments on him coming back to slay Ancalagon, though this was later given to Earendil, and at one point Turin came back in the Dagorath to slay Anacalagon. It's VERY confusing.
Turin was also a man, so wouldn't this be impossible and aganst his 'fate' to stay in Mandos? And doesn't he become a 'Child of a God' at the end? Also note, again the term 'Child of a God' represents Numenorean mythos since the Valar shouldn't rightly be called 'gods' but were dubbed so by some men, It's kind of like Gimli calling Galadriel 'Queen of Lothlorien'.
Addition: It seems that Turin's coming back was one of Andreth's prophecies, carried down perhaps:
The canonical on Turin coming back in the Dagorath and together with Eonwe (pre-cusor of Maia Warrior Fionwe. Fionwe is here a son of Manwe in a timeline in which the Valar were still capable of pro-creation.
Back to the 'Second Prophecy of Mandos' which is given in the Early Quenta Silmarillion. As I said it is doubtful whether Turin's slaying of Morgoth in the Dagorath is true, and rather it should belong with the earlier pre-LoTR Silmarillion work, although it is mentioned once or twice in the Latter Quentas.
Even though there is never (Or I belive) any abanonment of the Second Prophecy but one can assume that all evidence is weighed against the events mentioned actually taking place. As I have mentioned the Second Prophecy is not a authentic Noldorin text, in fact the 'Athrabeth' claims that there wasn't even a prophecy that Namo made concerning Arda's end:
This quote from the Valaquenat in the Published Silmarillion should disprove it too:
Quote:
and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manw’ and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.
and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manw’ and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.
One can therefore assume that it was a Numenorean courruption of a Eldarin text, or idea, liek the ideas of the Sun and Moon coming from the Two Trees, but it seems this has little basis. I believe Andreth comments on him coming back to slay Ancalagon, though this was later given to Earendil, and at one point Turin came back in the Dagorath to slay Anacalagon. It's VERY confusing.
Turin was also a man, so wouldn't this be impossible and aganst his 'fate' to stay in Mandos? And doesn't he become a 'Child of a God' at the end? Also note, again the term 'Child of a God' represents Numenorean mythos since the Valar shouldn't rightly be called 'gods' but were dubbed so by some men, It's kind of like Gimli calling Galadriel 'Queen of Lothlorien'.
Addition: It seems that Turin's coming back was one of Andreth's prophecies, carried down perhaps:
Quote:
The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that T’rin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.
Problem of Ros; HoME 12The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that T’rin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.
Hi Findekano and welcome to PT.....I really liked your post....can I get the references to that? I mean which pages and stuff
Thanks!
Thanks!
I will write a essay on it later on today. 
Hello and Welcome to our lovely site Findekano. 
I have enjoyed reading your posts so far; please keep it up!
I have enjoyed reading your posts so far; please keep it up! I just read in Morgoth’s Ring that he didn’t really want to rule over men or elves....but annihilate them....he wanted to destroy everyone.....he is very much unlike Sauron because in one sense Sauron was smarter....Sauron wanted to rule over the creatures of Arda....but Melkor wanted to rule over Arda itself.....He was also a mythomaniac(don’t know the english word but a compulsive liar) and believed his on lies......a very good book Morgoth’s Ring.....very interesting....
Oh well he would still have some Orcs and Dark Men to rule.
I don't think Sauron is smarter, he forged a Ring, then lost it and eventually he got destructed by means of his own Ring === poetic justice ?
I think Morgoth was evil, so he did what all evil guys would do : annihilate the Creation, and afterwards create a new world under his own, new order in which he would rule everyone and everything. And he almost succeeded in that, if the Valar wouldn't have interfered. (that was kind of a anticlimax for Morgoth - i really like to see his face when he heard about this)
I don't think Sauron is smarter, he forged a Ring, then lost it and eventually he got destructed by means of his own Ring === poetic justice ?
I think Morgoth was evil, so he did what all evil guys would do : annihilate the Creation, and afterwards create a new world under his own, new order in which he would rule everyone and everything. And he almost succeeded in that, if the Valar wouldn't have interfered. (that was kind of a anticlimax for Morgoth - i really like to see his face when he heard about this)
Yeah but Virumor it stated that he surely would destroy his own ORCS and other servants(propably not the balrogs seeing as they were ainur) after they had fulfilled their duty, annihilating the elves and men and everyone else!
Come on think about it....he wipes out the stronger folks......then he wipes out his own host of weaker kind......quite logical to do if someone wants total power over one kingdom as big as Arda!
Come on think about it....he wipes out the stronger folks......then he wipes out his own host of weaker kind......quite logical to do if someone wants total power over one kingdom as big as Arda!
Morgorth wouldn't destroy the orcs.
The power he most wanted was teh power to create, since these are the nearest he can get to this power why would he undo all of his work. he would have most likely have bent their will to a different cause!
The power he most wanted was teh power to create, since these are the nearest he can get to this power why would he undo all of his work. he would have most likely have bent their will to a different cause!
Quote:
his was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men. Melkor's final impotence and despair lay in this: that whereas the Valar (and in their degree Elves and Men) could still love 'Arda Marred', that is Arda with a Melkor-ingredient, and could still heal this or that hurt, or produce from its very marring, from its state as it was, things beautiful and lovely Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed',independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.
Myths Transformed; hoME 10 his was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men. Melkor's final impotence and despair lay in this: that whereas the Valar (and in their degree Elves and Men) could still love 'Arda Marred', that is Arda with a Melkor-ingredient, and could still heal this or that hurt, or produce from its very marring, from its state as it was, things beautiful and lovely Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed',independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.
But don't forget these are compiled by Christopher Tolkien, It's just his opinion!
Ross why discount HoME when it is J.R.R Tolkiens opinion not Chris's don't make rash assumptions. Dont just look at HoME and say "Ahh..but C.T wrote that" because he did not. The whole point of HoME was for C.T to give people who were interested in M-E a view of what he had to work with to set up the Silmarillion. The notes I have given are takne from a essay entitled 'Myths Transformed' written by Tolkien in the days when he had ceased work on the Quenta and was seeking to write essays and devleop some of his ideas. I find it ironic that some people (not you specifically) are prepared to attack HoME as not being 'Tolkiens works' when it is Tolkiens works whereas they quote from the Published Silamrillion, some of which is C.T work and claim that the HoME is C.T's ideas etc, when theymay are Tolkien's ideas in their original form.
[Edited on 30/5/2003 by Findekano]
[Edited on 30/5/2003 by Findekano]
I'm not discounting it. I'm just saying it's not nesseceraly the truth. It's an opinion with disgarded ideas of tolkien. Please note disgarded ideas and stories. Just like it's my opinion you have to respect that and back down!
These weren't disregarded ideas of Tolkien they were revisions of disregarded ideas or in this case new ideas which do not conflict with other ideas that have been citied by Tolkien, and I dont see how this description of Melkor as wanting to level Arda conflcits any texts published in the Silmarillion.
Back down? When did I ever get angry or give out a sense that I dot respect your opinion? I'm just correcting soemthing that I feel you have erred in, I thought that was a integral part of a forum.
Back down? When did I ever get angry or give out a sense that I dot respect your opinion? I'm just correcting soemthing that I feel you have erred in, I thought that was a integral part of a forum.
I think the text you cited, Findekano, was just an idea Tolkien came up with after writing the Silmarillion, like myriades of other ideas he came up with, even long after he wrote LoTR, UT and the Sil.
Tolkien also just said it was possible/plausible that Morgoth would do that, but he didn't say Morgoth indeed would do that.
I mean, look at the different stories Tolkien wrote about Galadriel and Celeborn - it doesn't really matter which story/idea was the real one, it are just possibilities Tolkien pointed out. It's better not to focus blindly on one possible detail of many possibilities, but instead just focus on the whole story and accept the different possibilities.
In my opinion, if Morgoth would destroy everything living on Arda after he won, evil or good, he wouldn't have much minions to rule, would he ? Of course, he could make some new species like Aul’ did with the Naugrim, but ultimately it is Eru who brings them to life, not Melkor so i think Melkor would be a bit lonely if he did such a thing OR Melkor would be the Lord of some zombierace.
Tolkien also just said it was possible/plausible that Morgoth would do that, but he didn't say Morgoth indeed would do that.
I mean, look at the different stories Tolkien wrote about Galadriel and Celeborn - it doesn't really matter which story/idea was the real one, it are just possibilities Tolkien pointed out. It's better not to focus blindly on one possible detail of many possibilities, but instead just focus on the whole story and accept the different possibilities.
In my opinion, if Morgoth would destroy everything living on Arda after he won, evil or good, he wouldn't have much minions to rule, would he ? Of course, he could make some new species like Aul’ did with the Naugrim, but ultimately it is Eru who brings them to life, not Melkor so i think Melkor would be a bit lonely if he did such a thing OR Melkor would be the Lord of some zombierace.
And it isn't worth arguing over. The Silmarillion as published wasn't written verbatin by J.R.R.Tolkien, but is his writing as compiled from his notes, by his son Christopher.
Some of what has been written in the Sil was later found to be incorrect or out of date when Christopher reviewed his father's notes while preparing the H.O.M.E. series.
If Toilkien had dated his notes, finding which ideas were the more current would have been easier; as it is, it will take a forensic detective to untangle the mess using Tolkien's Letters as a tool in doing so, for J.R.R.T. often changed his mind and reverted to the original idea after all.
There are many ideas like Balrog wings and Tom Bombadil's origin which hang twisting in the wind because there are too many facets for us to know which is the correct one.
So be nice and quit taking things personal and knock-off the name calling.
Some of what has been written in the Sil was later found to be incorrect or out of date when Christopher reviewed his father's notes while preparing the H.O.M.E. series.
If Toilkien had dated his notes, finding which ideas were the more current would have been easier; as it is, it will take a forensic detective to untangle the mess using Tolkien's Letters as a tool in doing so, for J.R.R.T. often changed his mind and reverted to the original idea after all.
There are many ideas like Balrog wings and Tom Bombadil's origin which hang twisting in the wind because there are too many facets for us to know which is the correct one.
So be nice and quit taking things personal and knock-off the name calling. 
The HOME series is the History of Middle Earth, which Christopher Tolkien edited. I think ME was a life long work for Tolkien, so it stands to reason that he continually discovered something new about its history. It would make sense that Christopher Tolkien would complete the work on The Silmarillion first as this was the work that Tolkien was closest to completing. Since the book never was published in Tolkien's lifetime, it is not surprising that he made changes along the way, unbeknownst to Christopher, until CT started going through more of his father's writings.
Who knows what Tolkien, himself, would have settled on had he actually published The Silmarillion (and other ME tales) before his death.
But it is all Tolkien's creation and all the versions of his works make for very interesting reading.
Who knows what Tolkien, himself, would have settled on had he actually published The Silmarillion (and other ME tales) before his death.
But it is all Tolkien's creation and all the versions of his works make for very interesting reading.
Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say Rednell, sometimes my meaning gets lost in my wording. 
Well I must say that Findekano must’ve taken my post to serious....I didn’t mean for people to think that THAT was what Tolkien intended....but that it was like Ross said:
But I feared that efter the second post Findekano made that we would have a BIG arguement.....and I hope I haven’t hurt anyones feelings.....
Oh and by the way.....if you guys wish to be yelling at each other....let some steam out at the Grumble Mumble Gergle Hi thread.....There you can have a dogfight but still in a civilised version
I hope we can see you there Findekano....and some of you others
Quote:
It's an opinion with disgarded ideas of tolkien. Please note disgarded ideas and stories.
It's an opinion with disgarded ideas of tolkien. Please note disgarded ideas and stories.
But I feared that efter the second post Findekano made that we would have a BIG arguement.....and I hope I haven’t hurt anyones feelings.....
Oh and by the way.....if you guys wish to be yelling at each other....let some steam out at the Grumble Mumble Gergle Hi thread.....There you can have a dogfight but still in a civilised version
I hope we can see you there Findekano....and some of you others
Thanks for the offer, Aule but unfortunately i suffer from hydrophobia (some childhood trauma, since i almost drowned in my grandparents' pond - not kidding).
Well that was a tragic and propably traumatic experience you suffered there Viru....sorry about that....but all other hydro freaks
just come on
just come on
As this is actually a thread about the residence of the black-hearted Bauglir, I feel I should provide a reference to one possible description of Angband: it had wolves under Morgoth's black throne and adders twining around its legs, and the nethermost hall was lit with fire and "weapons of death and torment".
Heh, it seems i even posted in this thread 35 years ago. How time flies! It's nice to dig up prehistoric threads now and then, i guess. Meh.
And how could i ever forget Findekano?
Actually i doubt that description, as Beren didn't encounter any wolfies when he hid under Morgy's throne whilst his lover was dancing in front of Morgy's throne. That description is a bit too Dark Lord’ for me.
And how could i ever forget Findekano?
Actually i doubt that description, as Beren didn't encounter any wolfies when he hid under Morgy's throne whilst his lover was dancing in front of Morgy's throne. That description is a bit too Dark Lord’ for me.
Beren was disguised as a wolf when he was hiding under the throne and there was that large and nasty wolf, Carcharoth lurking around so maybe there were other wolves as well? Morgoth! Take the dogs out for a walk!
Carcharoth was outside the gate. No worries there.
Incidentally I have to disagree that Fingolfin cut off Morgoth's foot. From the Lay...
... the mighty foot pale Ringil clave
about the heel, and black the blood
gushed as from smoking fount in flood.
Halt goes for ever from that stroke
great Morgoth; but the king he broke,
Or from the Grey Annals, §157: 'In his last throe Fingolfin pinned the foot of his Enemy to the earth with Ringil, and the black blood gushed forth and filled the pits of Grond. Morgoth went ever halt thereafter.'
Going halt means going maimed I would say. Also if Morgoth later (War of Wrath) had feet then he still had more than one after this confrontation.
I have to agree with you Galin, I don't think he only thereafter had one foot.
Vir, just how old is Planet-Tolkien? I too nearly drowned in a public pool and no one even noticed or helped me. Freaked me out for the rest of my childhood. (shivers)
