Thread: The Children of Hurin
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Sorry if it's a thread about this topic somewhere else..
Sorry again for starting a new thread about this ..I've read the threads about it in The Unfinished Tales .so it should've been there .
NOTE: This thread should be used to discuss about the up-coming book and its actual contents, and then later for comparisons with the story in Unfinished Tales. Please post discussion only about the story in Unfinished Tales under the above link. Thanks
Isn't this story just Narn i Hin H’rin from Unfinished Tales?
when i read that BBC news report, and the other news report, on the home page of this site the 1st thing i thought was the same thing. It is the longest lay that tolkien wrote about the First Age, correct me in i'm wrong there....
Anyways Narn i Hin Hurin is quite detailed compared to most other material that's been published about the 1st age, and i'd think that if Christopher Tolkien published it as a stand alone book it wouldn't been a very long one. Unless Ol' Christopher has dug up many more unpublished notes of his fathers, concerning that lay... Or he decides to do a little (more like a huge amount) improve of his own (which i'm not too fond of the idea)
Anyways that's just my 2 cents i had to throw in there!
Alejandro Serrano: 'First of all, we want to know if there will be new material in Children of H’rin, or the text that will be published is essentially the same that appears in other books. This is something that many of we ask ourselves.'
Adam Tolkien: 'This is a more difficult question than it seems: As you know, versions and pieces of the story of Hurin and his descendants have been published in various works (Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales, Lays of Beleriand, etc). The text of "The Children of Hurin" is in part compiled from these extant texts, and particularly that which appears in Unfinished Tales.
But it is a new reworking of the complete story. Many parts of the text will be - if not identical - recognizable to the knowledgeable reader, but there are also pieces that have never appeared before.
Also the format of the text, as a standalone and complete text with no editorial commentary to interrupt the tale should in itself and in my opinion considerably tranform the reading experience.
Christopher Tolkien believes there may be many readers who have found the Silmarillion too difficult and distanced in style to be attracted to the story, and who have not wished to make their way through the painstaking editorial content that makes for the main interest of the History of Middle Earth.
We hope that these readers will be sufficiently attracted to "The Children of Hurin", and will discover in this way the "great tale" that was so important to JRR Tolkien and then the whole fascinating mythology that lies behind "The Lord of The Rings".
So in conclusion : Many parts of the text are essentially the same as those that appear in other works (and particularly "Unfinished Tales"), other parts will be new except for those readers who have read in detail the History of Middle Earth.
The text as a whole can be said to be "new" as it is a recomposition of published texts and other "pieces" that weren't published previously. A completed puzzle, in a sense.'
That's just a bit dated now, but might help.
'A few lived in the household of H’rin of the house of Hador, for he had dwelt among the Folk of Haleth in his youth and had kinship with their lord [Author's note.] -- On the relationship of H’rin to the folk of Haleth see The Silmarillion p. 158 -- It was my father's intention ultimately to transform Sador, the old serving-man in H’rin's house in Dor-L’min, into a Dr’g.'
It was my father's intention ultimately to transform Sador, the old serving-man in H’rin's house in Dor-L’min, into a Dr’g.
That would be quite the transformation considering how drastic the change from being a normal looking man into one of those bow legged, uncouth creatures, only in a few thousand years of evolution too, must of been a hard knock life for them to take a step back in evolution. If they still existed in the 5th Age they must have been basically apes.
I'll end up buying the book when it comes out, although i have a hunch i won't be surprised or shocked at the ending.
I am not sure, but I highly doubt whether JRRT even supported the evolution theory.
The Woses are all of the Atani. They are not apes, but should be considered as bushmen or some kind of pygmies instead.
And while we are at it, the evolution theory does not state that humans, homo sapiens, evolved from apes. It just states that apes and humans have a common ancestor. That's something else entirely.
Similarly, Aragorn had initally been given the name of Trotter; as the story grew however, the name evolved into Stridder (aka: Aragorn and Elessar and Estel) and Trotter completely disappeared from the later drafts of the story.
I don't know if I have made this more clear here or just muddied the water.
But who gives a hoot, anyway.
But whatever it is , to have what might be the last of Christopher's efforts on behalf of his father is a treasure no matter what.
Just think, he is now about the age of his father when he passed from Middle-Earth to go where the elves do not know. sigh. And it doesn't seem to be the doom of any of the younger Tolkiens that I know of anyway to follow their great ancestor's steps and carry on. how very very sad.
But the story goes on regardless and as Bilbo said(I hope it was he) that the story goes on , just the players taking part change.So we will see what we will see.
From what I remember, Trotter was also a Hobbit with wooden feet - he had lost his original feet by means of torture in Mordor. But who gives a hoot, anyway.
His podiatrist?
that is the best.
I could not bear that he once called him Trotter. It just irked me so much.
Clickety Click
What I don't like is that MY COPY IS DELAYED!! Oh, WOE! Sorry for shouting. I ordered with Amazon because I have a gift certificate but the they said it won't be shipped intil May.
The earliest versions of this story by J.R.R. Tolkien go back to the end of the First World War and the years that followed; but long afterwards, when The Lord of the Rings was finished, he wrote it anew and greatly enlarged it in complexities of motive and character: it became the dominant story in his later work on Middle-earth. But he could not bring it to final and finished form. In this book I have endeavoured to construct, after long study of the manuscripts, a coherent narrative without any editorial invention.
Christopher Tolkien
Look what i found on the original LOTR site. That should answer many question.
Copyright ’ HarperCollins Publishers Ltd
And there're some interesting downloads there check it at http://tolkien.hcp-uk.co.uk/downloads.aspx
I finished reading the new children of hurin a couple of days ago. And while at first you might think as you are reading along that it is exactly the same, that is only because Christopher absolutely flawlessly and seamlessly put the puzzle together and it is a wonderful smooth and exciting read.
I am thrilled to have read it.
However, I wonder about the wisdom of me reading this, since Turin's story in the Silmarillion is not one of the things I prized in Tolkien's mythology.
Namarie!
With respect to the other great tales (long versions): when The Lord of the Rings proper was 'finished' but not published Tolkien began a prose saga of Beren and L’thien. Christopher describes it as a 'substantial' text, though the story goes no further than the betrayal by Dairon to Thingol of Beren's presence in Doriath.
The 'Later Tuor' (revised Fall of Gondolin, likely dating about 1951) was abandoned at Tuor's arrival in Gondolin.
Fuller accounts exist in The Book of Lost Tales but these are quite early tales as we know, and were different in style and etc. In the following Christopher is generally describing the early Fall of Gondolin for example...
'It is written in the extreme archaistic style that my father employed at that time, and it inevitably embodies conceptions out of keeping with the world of The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion in its published form.' Introduction, Of Tuor And His Coming To Gondolin
So Christopher felt he had enough to work with with respect to the 'later long version' of the T’rin tale. I guess it's possible something could be done with the very old versions (and anything else that might help) but it seems unlikely to me. At least I doubt Christopher Tolkien would be interested anyway.
With respect to the other great tales (long versions): when The Lord of the Rings proper was 'finished' but not published Tolkien began a prose saga of Beren and L’thien. Christopher describes it as a 'substantial' text, though the story goes no further than the betrayal by Dairon to Thingol of Beren's presence in Doriath.
That would be interesting to read.
Christopher noted that it is closely based on the rewritten form of the Lay '... as to read in places almost as a prose paraphrase of the verse.' (also that it was not known to him when he prepared the Silmarillion for publication).
OK, in places almost a prose paraphrase of the verse. Again, I'll buy it
I was wondering if it was the same as the illustration used for the jacket to the Dutch Edition (or 'seemingly' used, if the interweb is to be believed anyway).
I especially like the drawing of Nellas the Elf-maiden watching Turin from the trees.
Was there a mouse skulking around T’rin?
I especially like the drawing of Nellas the Elf-maiden watching Turin from the trees.
Yes, what a beautiful drawing indeed! The Glaurung's eye with a reflection of Turin's shape looks amazing too. Actually all of them are great - the B&W drawings really suit the dark story.
I've all of Tolkien's books, but somehow, when I was about to buy this jewel back in the day (2007?), I chose to get both finnish and english translated versions of The Children of Húrin. I love the book very much, maybe even more than I love The Silmarillion.
Just to mention it, I don't remember much about the original Narn I Chin Húrin. I'll definitely have to do a lot of re-reading in near times to come.
But back to The Children of Húrin..
And I've thought about doing this particular post for a long while now. And I was more than confused, when I suddenly couldn't find specific section for it from the 'Books' forums.
And now, anyone who wants to avoid spoilers, do not read this post further. You'll lose some of the magic that the book definitely shall grant to you upon reading.
Right, I think that what makes The Children of Húrin so exceptional is the story as a whole. First, it begins as a magical adventure with Húrin and his brother discovering the hidden kingdom of Gondolin, ruled by Turgon. Then they return to Hithlum, get ready for the war, the battle of Nirnaeth Arnoedidad is lost and Húrin captured. Then Morgoth takes him atop Thangorodrim and places a curse upon him and his family. And then the story starts to become darker and darker by each chapter.
Túrin flees to Doriath, to King Thingol's court. There he grows up, spends some time, then led by an accident, he leaves Doriath in bitter exile, is forgiven and sought in vain. He doesn't even know about his sister's birth at that point. Then he encounters the wolf people, Nargothrond and so forth (I don't recall all of the events so clearly.)
But the ending is the most interesting part of the book. Unknowing of each other, both Nienor and Túrin end up in the same forest village and start an relationship. Then Glaurung attacks, as he did in Nargothrond and Nienor finds out the truth, then she throws herself into the embrace of the waves. Túrin realizes the truth too, slays Glaurung and then he kills himself with his own sword. Then Húrin is released, he seeks out his children's grave, where his wife, Morwen lies - dying - and then they speak for the last time and Húrin is left alone by his children's grave and Morwen lying dead in his arms.
A book filled with death and darkness. I wonder why Tolkien started such a sad book, but I honor him for doing so. Never easy subjects to begin with, this is an masterful tale. Of course, his son Christopher did his part well too in completing the book as a whole.
Nevertheless, The Children of Húrin later inspired me to start writing my own dark stories and with the current direction, who knows where I'm headed. But whatever happens, if I ever manage to gain success, I'll hold this book as my weapon in combat, use it as my shield and as my source of inspiration. Dark fantasy, you're my kind of genre. I owe a lot to you and to this book.
So thank you. And even much greater thanks goes out to The Professor for starting such a story and to Christopher for finishing it.
PS. I wish I could remember all of the events and conclude them more accurately, but my memory isn't that good. Not that it was the point of this post anyway, but it proves that I need to give this book yet another read.
- Oerath.
I think when I first read The Children I felt that JRR had temporarily had a break down from stress and lack of sleep, poor nutrition. The subject and the way he w ent bout it gave NO HOPE ,none. In the LOTR their is always a feeling hope and the fruitage is around the corner. I did not think there was reason to introduce incest to make a strong story. I actually struggled with darkness and hopelessness for a while after reading the book. I prayed constantly until I felt peace and hope once more.
I never read the book again.
I love The Children of Hurin. In general I think tragic tales are interesting and can be very poignant; and can still contain messages of hope or resilience and courage, despite what happens to a given character.
As for the incest in Tolkien's tale specifically, that was there early on due to Kullervo's incest from the Finnish Kalevala. A young Tolkien was taken by this story. He may have commented about why in his essay about the Kalevala, but I can't recall without checking.
JRRT even started a prose version of Kullervo, with some poetry, but dropped this and eventually used elements of the Finnish story for his account of Turin: not only do we have unwitting incest, for example, but Kullervo's sword also speaks just before it slays him.
Leelee, perhaps it would be better for you to think of the Narn as part of the greater tale, after all, Narn i·Chîn Hurin or 'Tale of the Children of Hurin' is also called Narn e·'Rach Morgoth 'Tale of the Curse of Morgoth'...
... but that's not the end of the longer tale of course, considering Narn en·Êl 'Tale of the Star; or Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en·Êl: *Tale of the Fall of Gondolin and the Rising of the Star.
... keeping in mind that the star was named Gil-Estel which means 'Star of High Hope'.
Tolkien even gave Morgoth (at least at one point) his payback from Turin in the Second Prophecy of Mandos, except that that was, in any case, later characterized by JRRT as a mannish legend (and left out of the constructed Silmarillion by Christopher Tolkien).
Although I don't know if you find that palatable, even if given in a legendary context.
In this tale Tolkien was possibly commenting on the idea of ofermod, at least according to his understanding of the word. The following is more about Feanor, but...
http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/dreamlord/stages/ofermod.htm
Galin, your words always are intelligent and meaningful, thankyou. No I meant that I just felt that strongly as I read it. Coming from the work background I do and couselling and caring for people, I sensed a deep fatigue and mental unbalance that comes from being overworked and having little sleep and depression. I still feel that way about that particular book and it makes me feel ill and very upset. I believe that if he had sleep and good nutrition and was not so worried about things, no matter what he wrote it would not be so hopeless and dark, there would have been moments of light. "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth or pen in this case, speaks."