[Grondmaster began this thread with the following post.



Mellie replied

I was debating that point with someone while we were working on the quiz. We were not sure if the Mouth of Sauron or the Witch King could be considered human or not. We also debated about Elros, because he was still half-elven. Therefore, we went through several men, of ME and we finally decided that Elros was the oldest.

Of course Elros is a man! He accepted the Gift of Men.....that makes you a MAN!!! And Elros was a great and long lived man!

[Edited on 29/4/2003 by Aul’]

Hey about Tuor....if he was counted amongst the elves did he grow pointy ears or what??

Or maybe a pointy head.

The 'Published Silmarillion' rather vague on Tuor's fate. However Letter #153 (Letters of Tolkien) says;



Of course this quote is little help, it continues the ambiguous nature of the statement in the 'Published Silmarillion', but later on Tolkien states;



So here Tolkien explicitly states Tuor became a Elf.



Tolkien never candidly says that Elves had pointy ears.

We also get this quote from the 'Etymology' from HoME 5.



But some of this quote was hard to decipher and C.T often made his own additions to the 'Etymology' so we don't know if Tolkien or C.T wrote it.


In 'Letter 27; Letters of Tolkien, Tolkien states:



The 'Elves' mentioned here are not the ones of Tolkien’s legendarium, since they were not widely known but it was the widely held picture of 'Elves' in those times. The 'Elves' of popular legend then were of course wholly incongruent from the ones in Tolkien's legendarium. The creatures 'Elfs' were used by Shakespeare and Keats, in some poems.



Tom isn't a 'Man', he was around before the race of Men came into existence. He is a enigma.




Line of Elros; U.T

I'm positive the mouth of sauron was at once a human. He would be ancient in years if he arrived in Sauron's domination, but if we was still considered a man for all those years i'd be surprised.

'The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-d’r he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron." But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black N’menoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.' (b.III p.191)

i was wonderin, could Elros have recieved the gift of men but not technically have axtually been a man? I mean Elrond chose elf-kind and yet he and his offspring are still referred to as the peredhil, the half-elven?

yeh your probably right, but does it actually say naywhere in Tolkien that Elros actually became a man? everywhere ive read it just says "gift of men"

but was not "the gift of men" something that was given to men rather than that being the thing that made them men? im just trying to understanf better is all

yeh i understand this, the gift of men made them mortal, but wos that the thing that made them human? could not Elros have been peredhil but have recieved the gift of men? would that have immediately "turned" him into a human?

yes i read that passage but manwe says "fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged" he doesnt actually say they become elf or man, so just becasue Elros's "fate was joined" with that of men, and made him mortal did that really that make Elros a man? i know im being pedantic and i apologise if im annoying you.

Well, biologically they wouldn't lose all their "elven" characteristics and abilities suddenly, yes (like pointy ears, for instance - heh). So technically, from the purist point of view, it's true they didn't suddenly become a Man.

It's the same with Arwen : she was born as an Elf, because Elrond chose to be counted among Elves 2700 years ago, but still she could choose to be counted among Men --- and i'm sure she didn't suddenly lose her pointy ears then.

But of course, it's not known how E’rendil and any of the other half-elves looked; we don't know whether they looked more like Elves or like Men. Perhaps their characteristics would be split in half - slightly pointed ears, etc. I don't know.

And Grondy, Dwarves were NOT children of Illuvatar. They were Aul’'s children. Eru only adopted them.

yeh virumor thats kinda wot i was talkin about but the point behind my endless ramblin wos whether Elros was actually the longest lived "Man" or rather the longest lived mortal peredhil

Some may have noticed I have a habit of finding ancient arguments long forgotten, some firmly decided, some anything but, and kicking over the ant hill just to see what crawls out of it. Well. I will stipulate for the record that the Mouth of Sauron was human (at least to the extent it devolves on me to so, which is essentially to the extent I wish to debate the issue and no further.) However, while he was from the race of the Black Numenoreans, others contemporary with Frodo and under no enchantment could make the same claim, the Corsairs of Umbar, for example (from whence I always understood the Mouth of Sauron to have come.) If he entered Saurons service when Barad-dur was REbuilt, that would have been in 2951 TA, making him at least 68 (and more likely in the range of 90 or more,) but he'd have to go a long way to match Elros, who still gets the title (this has the added advantage of being what Tolkien actually said. ) If the Mouth of Sauron entered the service of Sauron in his youth, coming from Umbar perhaps as an "ambassador" he would have been at the time of the War of the Ring an old, if not elderly, man by the fallen standards of the most fallen Numenoreans, but not remarkable in age. Needless to say, I clicked on this expecting a discussion of Elros; boy was I in for a surprise.

Never mind. I made time and found it. Earendil choose to be held among the first born only for Elwings sake. But it does say that his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father. So he was very very close to being a man. I think he should still win the oldest man competition.

You should really learn how to make time. It comes in useful.

At the risk of drifting even further off topic, if you haven't already, Grondy, you might enjoy a look at Asimovs "The Red Queens Race." I don't have the anthology handy, so I forget which 'zine had it, but it's enshrined for posterity in The Early Asimov, not too far after thiotimoline. It's premised around a nuclear pile that was completely drained to do exactly what you're saying, for exactly the reasons you state.

Oh, um, the longest lived man... er, who was second if Elros is first?

"But who calls that living, if no gal would give in, to no man what lived nine hundred years?" - from the opera Porgy and Bess by George Gerswin

It isn't the length of time that encompasses our lives, but the quality of that time, and how we spend it. - Somebody must have said this ever so much better than I have tried to do here.

Quality, not quantity, my friend. Just like with life.

Having said that, why dost thou not post in the WOT thread ?

The most long lived man is bilbo baggins.

So now i've seen a few people post something similiar to this. Any offspring of Elrond can choose their fate if they wish to become mortal or not? Does that go for any Elf such as Luthien did the same?

It applies for all descendants of E’rendil & Elwing, as instated by the Valar.

L’thien was given the choice in the Halls of Mandos, and she chose to return to Beleriand as a mortal woman...

Probably because not all Elves desire a union with mortals... this was quite rare.

Yes, there is. There's Aegnor & Andreth, but he never married her because he had a feeling that the Doom of Mandos would get the better of him.

Ya i thought the Mouth of Sauron was depicted very badly in the movie too. In the books he sounded so bad ass riding in on his black steed with flaming nostrils, or were they eyes? i can't remember.

In the movie he looks like a big clown with horrible teeth and a funny hat.