In The Prancing Pony under I'm New:
Adweena Posted Wednesday 7th April 2004 (12:52am)




I think this fits better as a thread of its own.

Adweena Posted Wednesday 7th April 2004 (08:09pm)

Khamul the Easterling was actually the only nazgul to be named by Tolkien. Murazor was a Tolkien figure (the younger brother of one of the Numenorian kings) and is a strong contender to be the Witchking, although Tolkien never specified this. The other names are all names which were invented by Iron Crown Enterprises for their Middle Earth Role Playing game, and have no foundation in Tolkien's work at all. All of them can be found in the I.C.E manual, Lords of Middle Earth Volume 2.

Ringbearers? I take that to mean those who bore the ring rather than those who possessed a ring. Call me nitpicky if you like but surely the only true Ringbearers would be Bilbo, Frodo and Sam.

Bilbo is a slightly grey area because he had the ring without knowing what it was and when it was discovered to be the One Ring he had already left it to Frodo. Bilbo was more of a Ringkeeper as he never took it anywhere. Frodo and Sam knew what they were doing with the ring.

Gollum just found it and treasured it. Isildur won it in battle and kept it but neither had any intention of destroying it. They were Ringhoggers!

This is just my interpretation. I don't know whether Tolkien himself ever referred to anyone and everyone who ever touch a ring of power as a Ringbearer.

I am still undecided about Bilbo. After all, Gollum wore the ring, Isildur wore the ring and neither of them were trying to give it away or destroy it whereas the true Ringbearers were - i.e. Sam and Frodo. I think I shall give Bilbo the benefit of the doubt because he 'gave' it to Frodo when it was required of him to do so. His part in the Hobbit redeems him perhaps - working for good but in terms of how he came to have the ring he is not much different from Gollum/Smeagol who stole it from Deagol

Well don't ringbearers get to go to the grey havens?
the elves do FRodo and Bilbo do.
I remember TOlkien said that somewhere

He wore it lots of times in "the Hobbit" too...

Bilbo wore it for the good of Middle-Earth as well. Look what he did with it in the Hobbit. He's as much Ringbearer as Frodo and Sam. Does that serve your viewpoint or definition of Ringbearer? I just look at what JRRT wrote.

In LOTR, Isildur and Gollum died because of the Ring, so why would they live? It would completely change the story, had they lived, and would also change the parts of Frodo, Sam and Bilbo in the story. Can't argue about that.


So? If Galadriel or any other big fish would've taken the Ring like Isildur, they would've fallen for it as well just like Isildur. Btw, Isildur didn't became corrupted, as he was never able to use the Ring (the Ring had other plans). Isildur fought at the side of good as well, heck he fought with his brother for Gondor in the Dagorlad. The big fishes, though, would've succeeded in using the Ring, and would become corrupted. No place for Valinor for them as well. No need to degrade Isildur, really.

There's only 1 character who became corrupted : Gollum


They are not, as they never wore the One Ring, luckily enough.

you posted earlier :


I agree with that!

omg...

I agree. Read Gandalf's story: 'The Quest of Erebor' in Unfinished Tales, wherein he tells how he knew Sauron was at Dol Guldor, and Saruman was dragging his feet, and there was this Dragon named Smaug that Gandalf didn't want to get teamed up with Sauron. Then he met Thorin on the road; Thorin wanted to win his birthright back, and Gandalf thought of this young hobbit who needed to go adventuring, and he just stirred the pot and the part of the problem concerning the Dragon was solved. This story with notes and variation, fills about 16 pages of UT and better ties together the events of The Hobbit, into that time's general state of Middle-earthen affairs.

Anyway, by finding the Ring and using it towards ridding the middle-earth of the danger of Smaug joining Sauron, (actually by being the catalyst that kept things moving, including riling-up the great wyrm), Bilbo contributed to the well being of Middle-Earth, just as Virumor said. Bilbo's time playing at caring for the Ring between the time of his return to Bag End from Rivendell, until his leaving for there again, is irrelevant: his place in history as a Ringbearer had already been determined.

I still can't see the problem. Frodo can't be called Ringwearer, because he didn't wear the Ring all the time... only 6 times in the entire trilogy if i counted it correctly?

i think JRRT just used 'bear' (not referring to the animal) as in 'carry', 'possess'.

Discussion is closed then, as i already posted a quote from ROTK which clearly shows there are 3 Ringbearers: Frodo, Bilbo and Samwise. Btw, i meant Frodo : he wore the Ring in the Prancing Pony, at Weathertop, at the house of Tom Bombadil, on Parth Galen/Amon Hen and near the fires of Mt Doom. I don't remember right now if Frodo put the Ring on in Buckland as well, and i'm too lazy to check it now. So 5 or 6 times.

While the three were major rings of power, I don't believe Tolkien ever gave them the capitol R, which he reserved for the One Ruling Ring. Would this problem be less muddied if Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam were deemed Ring-bearers; leaving Cirdan, Gil-galad, Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf as ring-bearers, those who bore the three Elven rings?

(I have since found a few cases where Tolkien wrote "the ring" and the "Three Rings" so maybe the above is all wet, but I think he often wrote of the "One Ring".)

Oh well, I'll leave it to those of you with more brainpower than mine to figure out the answer to this dilemma.

yes. but gollum & isildur were killed instead of going over the sea.

All of the official Ring-bearers that we know of went over the sea to the Undying Lands (Frodo and Bilbo in S. R. 1421, and then Sam in S.R. 1482, last of the Ring-bearers).

In addition, all of the Three Keepers, original, and otherwise went over the sea with the only exceptions being Gil-galad because he was killed at the Dagorlad, and possibly Cirdan, although I’m very inclined to believe that Cirdan himself eventually went back to Aman. So really with the exception of Gil-galad, all of the Ring-bearers went over the sea!

As far as Gimli is concerned, it is said that Galadriel herself secured that favor for him with the Valar. It is because of Galadriel, and his service in the war against Sauron that Gimli was the only dwarf ever allowed into the Grey Havens.

I believe Isildur and Gollum were Ringbearers as well, for a short while, just like Sam, before they perished. You don't have to pass into the West to be one, just have the One Ring in your possession for a while.

We all know that Isildur and Gollum died, but this doesn't mean they are not Ringbearers. They're just dead Ringbearers. Actually, they died because of the One Ring, because they had the One Rin in their possession...

Also, i don't think the keepers of the Three are Ringbearers, Ringbearer only refers to dramatis personae carrying the One Ring.

From Letter # 181


The ’Three’ undoubtedly refer to Bilbo, Frodo and Sam. We know Bilbo left the Shire for Rivendell because it was never the same for him after he returned from his adventure. Wearing the Ring had changed him and he found it difficult to find the same pleasures he had previously experienced in the Shire. For Frodo, wearing the Ring and, probably more importantly, carrying (or bearing) it so close to its source of power until its destruction, changed Frodo so that he could no longer enjoy the tranquil life in the Shire. I think this is the irony that Tolkien is pointing out in the above and Frodo makes the same observation before departing for the Grey Havens.


It would seem that Sam did not bear the Ring long enough to bring him the same ’pain’ that Frodo and Bilbos experienced, but he did lose his closest friend. Even though he had many happy years with Rosie raising a family, he too suffered ’pain’ brought on by the bearing of the Ring in the ’anti-quest. The only hope our ’Three’ had for any healing was to sail in that ship. Was this not the least that could be done for them considering their sacrifice?
It is unfortunate that Isildur didn't live to see the destruction of the Ring, for if he was successful in getting it to Rivendell, he too would have been considered an Ring-bearer and afforded the same offer of healing in the Grey Havens. But then, the story would have been very different from the one we love and enjoy.
But poor Gollum, would never have even considered destroying his preciousssss. So I don't think the privlidges of the Ring-bearers would have applied to him.



Many Meetings (Gandalf speaking to Frodo)

I think the distinction is made here between ’bearer’ and ’finder’ because of the task that laid before Frodo. However, there seems to be inconsistency as later in the chapter ’The Grey Havens’, Bilbo also is referred to as ’Ring-bearer’.

Those who were in possession of the three Elven rings were not considered Ring-bearers, any more than were the 9 mortal men or 7 dwarves.

As far as the uppercase ’R’ is concerned, I agree that it is really an error in editing. I have no doubt that Tolkien meant that an uppercase ’R’ was to be used when referring to the One Ring and consequently, Ring-bearer was meant to have the uppercase ’R’, as well.

Yes - this ties in with the point I was making that it is taking on the responsibility of the Ring that makes one a Ringbearer rather than a ringwearer and that responsibility is to ensure its destruction.


.

Absolutely. And Isildur refused to destroy it so he also lost the privilege of being a Ringbearer.

I don't see why it should because Frodo had already taken the Ring to Mount Doom at great risk and he faltered at the end but for all we know had Gollum not taken the Ring from him he may have recovered his senses and courage and destroyed it. But even without that he had taken the Ring, with the responsibility, and had been for all that time a Ringbearer whereas Isildur never intended to destroy the Ring but to keep it for himself as a weregild for my father, and my brother and he took it to treasure it.



There is no mention of repentance or decision to take the Ring anywhere in the Silmarillion or in LotR other than...


The SIl, Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age

which together with the other quotes above shows he intended keeping it for himself. I prefer the text of the Sil and LotR over that of UT which is contradictory to the finished story.

No mention either that Isildur delayed wearing the Ring because it caused him pain. So no, I don't think Isildur deserved to be included as a Ringbearer.



I think Gollum was more likely to go totally bananas and end up dead anyway, probably killing Frodo and Sam as well.

Are you playing Devil's Advocate? You agree that Frodo, Sam and Bilbo are the only true Ringbearers yet you persist in suggesting that Isildur and Gollum are also Ringbearers. What is it to be?

This is a very valid point you have raised here Vir, and it is true that Frodo did fail in the end. Thankfully the good professor left us the answer to this question sometime around the early winter of 1956 in a letter to Michael Straight (letter #181, and the same one that’s been mentioned in this thread a few times now).

Here’s the quote with the answer,



So there we have it, straight from Tolkien himself, by a situation created by his forgiveness, Frodo was saved, redeemed, and still worthy and deserving of the title and privileges of Ring-bearer. Tolkien also states further in that letter that after the events at Shelob’s lair, Gollum was lost, and all chance of repentance for him was gone, no matter if some circumstances had changed.



It’s the latter of the two possibilities you’ve addressed here Vir, just like with the Keeper’s of the Three, the destruction of the One would have been the total end for Gollum too, but that’s probably a whole other topic on it’s own.



Isildur’s repentance is chronicled in detail in the tale Disaster Of The Gladden Fields in Unfinished Tales.

Vee, I totally understand your stance about personally choosing to adhere to the published versions of the Sil, and LotR due to some contradictory problems that arise, and generally this is a practice that I follow for the most part as well. I choose to stick with the published version of the Sil most of the time, but also understand, and acknowledge that often times Tolkien had other thoughts about certain events, and had some alternate versions of some of the stories we know.

In the case of UT however, I think one can accept almost everything in there as relevant and valid, and definitely additional essential canon to the stories we love. If my memory is serving me correctly, with the exception of a few of the stories in UT (the chief being the Narn I Hin Hurin, and The History Of Galadriel And Celeborn), there is actually very little told in UT that is in conflict with anything we know from either the Sil, or LotR. The great majority of what’s in UT definitely adds to what we know, and is very consistent in accordance with Tolkien’s other writings.

It’s been a little while since I’ve last read the specific chapter Disaster Of The Gladden Fields, but I have read it a few times overall, and from what I can remember, the only conflict from what we know in published versions of the Sil, and LotR are just some specific details concerning the exact manner, and location of Isildur’s death? The rest of what’s in that chapter greatly adds to what we know, and I think is safe for those of us who wish to accept as canon.

I feel Tolkien does make it clear in that chapter that Isildur had realized the error of his ways, and that he wished to repent, and in fact was on his way to Rivendell to surrender the Ring to Elrond, and admit his mistake. For me personally, I definitely do believe this to be true.

However, we all know that the Ring betrayed Isildur to his death, and thus he was not afforded the chance at ultimate repentance. He did wish to repent, and after I read UT for the first time, Tolkien had redeemed Isildur in my eyes, but there is a difference between wanting to do something, and then actually following through with it.

I also agree with Vee’s point in that it is taking on the responsibility of the Ring that makes one a Ring-bearer, and that responsibility is to ensure its destruction. The reasons that Isildur, and Frodo took the Ring were completely different from one another.

So I would have to say that in my own personal opinion, due to the circumstances and events we know to be acceptable canon, that Isildur and Gollum could not be considered Ring-bearer’s. I do feel that it could have been possible though if Isildur had managed to turn over the One successfully to Elrond, thus gaining repentance, that he might have been granted the privilege of getting to go to Aman by the grace of the Valar?

Ok everyone sorry for the confusion by my question "Who are the Ringbearers?" I meant who had the rings like the One Ring the Elves rings the Dwarves rings the Mens rings. I mean them all not just the One. (Would the other people the bore the other rings be called ringbearers too.)

The Nazgul were the original bearers of the 'Nine Rings of Men' and were known as the Ringwraiths rather than ringbearers.

Thr’in (Thorin Oakenshield's father) had the last of the 'Seven Rings of the Dwarves' taken from him when he was captured and imprisoned in Dol Guldor by Sauron. We don't know who held the other six before Sauron took control of them. They could have technically, been called ringbearers, but by the time of the story, the end of the Third Age, Sauron was completely in control of their rings and they were no longer alive, Thr’in having died 168 years before the 'Long Expected Party'.

Doh, that’s actually my bad there Grondy! I realize now in looking at your last post that I somehow mis-read part of the quote from letter #181 I had posted.


I too had always believed that it was clear that Frodo and Sam never concealed the precise course of events, and that’s why I had said I had always just assumed that probably at least Aragorn, and definitely Gandalf were told the truth about what actually occurred.

What happened is I made a bo-bo, and somehow mistook that statement to mean that Tolkien was saying that they did conceal what happened, that’s why I was so shocked initially, but it was just my mistake.

Don’t know how I could have mis-read that, or believed that in the first place, but it happens, and I’m glad you pointed that out or else I probably would have been scarred for the rest of my life!

Exactly what it says.

Maybe it came to her in a dream; or one of Gildor I's messengers brought her a message from Cirdan who had an undersea/overair connection with the home office; or maybe Gandalf gave her the word that her visa had been approved, now that she, the last of the exiled Noldor, had assisted in the downfall of Sauron. She had achieved her dream to have an adventure and become gueen of a land; besides that, she was tired, and her ring no longer kept decay at bey.