Yes, i think elves are immortal. Tolkien said they only died by being killed, and never got sick.
Still, Elves can die of broken hearts - Luthien, or Arwen, for example.
Hope this helps,
Tasari

Maybe the elves feed the Eternal flame? (not in a bad way or anything, just with life force)
Or become Ainur?

Eternal flame... strange that the Bangles seem to pop up everywhere these days.

I thought Arwen was still an elf, only she had a part of human heratige in her too. I would have thought marriage couldn't change her race.
-Tasari

Arwen was an elf when she died but her death was not that of an elf as she did not pass to the Halls of Mandos as elves do but 'suffered the Doom of Men'. IMO anyway. Having said that, it does say that she 'became as a mortal woman' so it is a little confusing. I don't think she could change her physiology though she was an elf who died like a mortal woman. Or is there more to this?

Arwen was neither Elf or Human. She was Peredhil, or half-elven. Because she had some human blood, she was able to accept the Gift of Man even though her father had chosen not to do so. This means she was able to determine her own fate, either being immortal as an Elf or mortal as a Human. Unlike her Uncle Elros, who chose mortality early in life, Arwen delayed the decision for a couple of thousand years. Once the decision to accept the Gift of Man was taken, however, her fate was sealed and she became mortal. This did not mean her body metamorphesised from Elf to Human, though. She was born Peredhil and died Peredhil.

Regarding the original question of Elven immortality, Vee was correct to say they were immortal within the life of Arda. The effect of Melkor's Ring upon the world, however, tainted every atom of Middle Earth making immortality a problem for elves in Middle Earth. Their bodies were immune to ageing and disease, but over time they tended to become devoured by their own bright spirits. This was particularly so in the case of the Elves that had returned from the Undying Lands, having seen the light of the Two Trees. Their Fea (spirits) tended to "burn out" their Hroar (physical body). In extreme cases they can fade away. This is why many Elves tire of Middle Earth. It is not just the wars they have tired of, but life in general.

Rather than saying Elves are immortal, it would be more accurate to say their bodies age very slowly. If they do die, their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos, where after a period of contemplation they are able to be reborn in a new body.

Ahhhh!! I just spent an hour answering this, and my PC crashed just before I was about to post....



Although Tolkien did not specifically say so, it is thought that the Glorfindel who chased away the Nazgul in LotR is the same Glorfindel who was slain by a Balrog during the retreat from Gondolin. If this is the case Glorfindel's spirit will have gone to the Halls of Mandos where it will have spent a time of Waiting, contemplating its past life and mistakes. In the case of Glorfindel and Finrod Felegund, this period appears to have been reletively short, compared to say Feanor, who will not be released until the End. The Halls are not a prison for spirits, but a place they go for contemplation and healing. If mistakes in life are few, the healing might be quick.... Early release for good behaviour.



Elven rebirth created a few problems for Tolkien. In HOME book 10, Morgoth's Ring, he mentions it in detail, but he ran into a few stumbling blocks as he tried to develop the idea. I think this is why rebirth gets only the slightest of mentions in the Silmarillion. In HOME, JRR mentioned two possibilities for rebirth.

1) The "houseless" fea enters its previous body. The difficulty here is that the body must be whole, and able to sustain life. Elves can die of injury and grief, but in the case of the former, the body is unlikely to be able to sustain life after rebirth. Also, during the period of Waiting, decomposition is likely to have occured. If the body was in Middle Earth, this would have been rapid. Decomposition was not a problem in Valinor, so an elf that died of grief could potentially be reborn in their own body. A problem again arises, however. Few Elves that have died of grief will wish to return from Mandos after their time of Waiting. An example of this is the case of Finwe's first wife, Miriel. After the birth of Feanor her fea left her body and went to Mandos. Although her body was preserved in Lorien, she refused the summons of rebirth, choosing instead to remain in Mandos for all time. Interestingly, this example also posed a dilemna to the Valar about when an Elven marriage could be deemed to have ended.


2) The second way JRR offered as an explaination for rebirth was for a houseless fea to enter the body of a new born child. This seems logical, but as JRR tried to dot the i's and cross the t's, he ran into more problems. Eru had given his Children the power to, "beget children in all ways like to themselves, body and indwelling spirit; and that therefore the fea of a child came from its parents as did its hrondo (body)". Basically, Eru had given the right for Elves to procreate, and the expectation for their children to be a blend of themselves, both physically and spiritually. The problem rebirth presented was that if houseless fea were allowed to enter the bodies of newborn children, this would deprive the new parents of their basic right to share their own fea with their child. In essence, their child would be an "alien" spirit.

Having encountered this problem, JRR attempted to find a way around it. If rebirth did happen in this way, he suggested the reborn fea would recieve nourishment from the parents during the time of bearing, thus still sharing their qualities. In this case, the reborn fea would lie partly submerged during childhood, only coming to the fore as its previous memories awoke.

Tolkien wrote





Tolkien wrote



Although reborn elves benefit from this double nourishment, I would disagree with your suggestion that, "their knowledge would far surpass any existing elves, having experiences lasting for not just one, but many lifetimes". I agree their experiences would surpass that of other elves of the same (body) age, but not necessarily of other older elves. In human terms you are possibly correct because humans are short lived and multiple rebirths would enable greater learning over time. Remember elves are effectively immortal, however. Even a reborn Glorfindel, with two lots of memories, is unlikely to have the knowledge of an older elf who has not died. He wll have an experience of Mandos the older elf does not have, but the older elf will still have a long, long life's worth of memories and knowledge, uninterrupted by an untimely death.

Phewww! Almost lost it all a second time, but I'd made the point of saving it into Word before trying to post. Hope that answers your question.

Until I read Morgoth's Ring, that is how I had always imagined it to be too, Vir. I think the problems he ran across with the various methods, however, is why the ideas did not get more than the slightest of mentions in the Silmarillion. Some things are best left to the readers imagination.

In the case of Luthien and Beren, Luthien would have been able to re-enter her own body, using JRR's first solution as she had died of grief and her body was stil intact. Beren, however, must have had the "wax on, wax off" treatment applied as he had died of injuries.

At the end of the day, Tolkien wrote fantasy but he went into so much detail it feels real and historic. Fantasy, however, shouldn't always be held under such scrutiny because the physics and biology of fantasy settings begin to fall apart. Because one rule/law applies to one character, maybe it doesn't have to with another. Eru was quite active in the affairs of Ea. Maybe even he had his favourites and changed the rules as he went along.... A new body for Finrod, rebirth for the masses, and Feanor can rot in Mandos until the End

I'm sure the mighty elf Frankenstein could do that..

I think Aul’ could build them a new body and Mandos could pour their soul into it.

He does seem to have concentrated his efforts on explaining the rebirth into a newborn, too. The mention of Finrod walking with his father beneath the trees seems to imply rebirth into a grown body, but this does not need to be the case. The Silmarillion puts no time scale on how soon Finrod was returned, only that he had. Elven children grow to maturity only slightly slower than humans, so in Elven terms, his return might have been fairly quick.

Yes he does say the Children of Illuvatar are Elves and Men.. but he goes on to say the firstborn and the followers. This makes the division of Elves and Men with the implication that Elves came first followed shortly by men. Can be compared with God making man before woman.

Perhaps so!

Tasari asked the following question in another thread today, but as it is more relevant to this thread I have moved it here.



Tolkien suggests that the fea of the reborn elf actually becomes the fea of the newborn. This will mean that the baby has just the one spirit; that of the Reborn. To get around the fact that this leads to problems concerning the parental right to procreate fea in their own likeness, he suggested the reborn fea would recieve nourishment from the new parents during the time of bearing, thus still sharing their qualities. In this case, the reborn fea would lie partly submerged during childhood, only coming to the fore as its previous memories awoke.

Tolkien wrote

They come from a couple of unfinished essays JRR wrote, called Laws and Customs among the Eldar. In these are sections, Of Death and the Severance of Fea and Hrondo and Of Re-birth and other Dooms of those that go to Mandos. These can be found in HOME book 10, Morgoth's Ring.

To answer this, one must be clear as to what is the meaning of "death" - In Tolkiens' world elves are immortal in fea (spirit) only - the hroa (body) can be killed or die. If a hroa can no longer sustain life then the fea becomes "houseless" and goes to Mandos. Once a fea is healed in Mandos Halls and is released by Namo, it is rehoused in a hroa. If the fea is rehoused it retains the memories and persona for the first life. Even if the hroa "fades" the fea does not .
Tolkin clearly states that men" die".

Perhaps you have read the Glorfindel essays by now, but anyway, for those who might not have, Tolkien ultimately did conclude that Glorfindel of Gondolin was Glorfindel of Imladris.



These ideas are gleaned from Morgoth's Ring but JRRT rejected that Elves were reborn as children. In Morgoth's Ring there is an Appendix in the section dealing with the Athrabeth: 'The Converse of Manwe and Eru' and later conceptions of Elvish reincarnation.

In the Converse re-birth is still possible as a unique mode, but it is not in the power of the Valar; that is, Eru will consider a given case. But in any event, in the later conceptions of Elvish reincarnation ('he' is JRRT of course):



The conception Tolkien landed on was that the fea retains a memory or imprint of its hroa, its 'former house', so powerful and precise that the reconstruction (by the Valar) of an identical body can proceed from it. In the last volume of The History of Middle-Earth, in note 17 to Last Writings, Christopher Tolkien notes again:



The idea of Elvish reincarnation was around well before the name Glorfindel made it into The Lord of the Rings, it's just that Tolkien was not done tinkering with how Elves could be 're-housed'.

Well, as the passage about Felagund (basically) reaches all the way back to the original Lay of Leithian (1925-31) it seems that the notion of 'reborn' was actually present. Though worded a bit differently due to its age (and obviously being poetry), first the grave is mentioned, and...

... unless that land is changed and gone,
or foundered in unfathomed seas,
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor, and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.

Of course once Tolkien rejects the notion of rebirth the idea behind this changes. Anyway, by the time JRRT wrote Reincarnation of Elves he notes that since hroar have a physical descent, the body of rebirth, having different parents, must be different -- and that this must be a condition of pain to the reborn fea is part of why Tolkien eventually rejects Elvish rebirth as a mode of reincarnation.

How then can Elrond be called Half-elven if he chose to remain with the Firstborn, whilst Elros is named a 'complete' Man (even though he should be called 'Half-man'), and thus his decsendants have no right to choose their fate?

It is not possible for a mortal to rebuke mortality, because it is the Gift of Eru. Only Tuor managed to get rid of it, to be able to remain with his haughty hottie for all posterity and this most probably involved the decision of Eru Himself.

"Half-elven" is just a name to denote the descendants of E’rendil & Elwing.

Arwen did not become 'mortal' by wedding Aragorn. Even after Aragorn's death she could still have gone to the Havens and Beyond, and she could've lived in Valinor until the Sundering. She just lay herself down in L’thlorien and died of 'grief', as L’thien did before her. There was never a moment where she was dragged in front of the Valar and forced to make a choice, unlike E’rendil & Elwing (and their sons, although those would've been dragged before E’nw’).

Returning to the matter at hand, Elves are not immortal; they can be killed, or die by grief or accident; if they live in the tainted lands outside of Valinor, they simply burn themselves up and die automatically after a couple of millennia. Only the ones with nifty tools to slow down this process (Galadriel, Elrond) could delay this process - but not indefinitely.

I would say 'Half-elven' is a term denoting mixed ancestry. Dior refers to himself as the first of the Pere’il (Half-elven). Elros could be called Elros Half-elven, and is referred to in this way in the Index of Names in the Silmarillion anyway. After he chose a mortal fate his ancestry remained the same, just like Elrond's, but he was probably more well known in the tales as Elros Tar-Minyatur in any case.

Basically, an Elf who remains long enough in Middle-earth will not die but will fade in the body (and so become invisible to Men in general). Although C’rdan did not necessarily awake -- in the sense of the Eru-begotten -- he was indeed very old.

Welllll. they are immortal, yeah, in the sense that they dont age or anything. But you can stab em and they'd die, like Haldir........

Even if slain by misfortune or sword, the Elves spirit returns to Mandos for judgement and perhaps rest and the judgement if of The Valar then released, embodied back into Valinor to live again. So indeed imortal while the Earth remains whole and present.

Since their fea lasts until the world is destroyed at the great end and they could still get a new body from the valar at any point they are definatly immortal.

I agree with you. Tolkien speaks of elves diminishing as they wandered middle earth unable to reach the undying lands where they would behold the trees of the valar and never grow old under the light of arien the sun. Hope this helps.

Tolkien did note [Last Writings note 24] that: 'The flesh of Dwarves is reported to have been far slower to decay or become corrupted than that of Men (Elvish bodies robbed of their spirits quickly disintegrated and vanished.)'

That said I think Feanor might be a case of unusual quickness as he was even named 'Spirit of Fire' and it was noted that: '... he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash...'

... while Felagund on the other hand, was buried [seemingly] after day arose, after the battles of Huan, and after Luthien unloosed the stones and so on; and Glorfindel's body was brought up from the chasm and buried in a mound of stones.