Thread: Avari
Recently, something crossed my mind. Of the elves, after their coming to Cuivenen(?), many refused the journey to Valinor. If I am right, then Cuivenen must be far beyond the Misty Mountains, certainly further east than Mordor. If these refused the journey, they must either have remained their, or hopped across the pond, or come into Beleriand or Eriador. What did become of them?
Some remained in the East, some went into the West, reached Mirkwood, mingled with the descendants of the Eldar who had stopped there, forming the Silvan Elves.
Mordor had once been part of the Sea of Helcar; Cuivi’nen lay on the (north) eastern shores of this sea, near the roots of where once Illuin had stood.
Mordor had once been part of the Sea of Helcar; Cuivi’nen lay on the (north) eastern shores of this sea, near the roots of where once Illuin had stood.
Indeed Virumor is right in his calculations. Cuivienen lies just south West of the Orocarni, Eastern Mountains in a large forested area on the northeastern coasts of Helcar within a couple of hundred miles of where Illuin stood as Virumor stated.
The Oracarni mountains still remained steadfast in the Third Age, probably acting as the Eastern border of the Men of Rhun. However there is still quite a large space between the Oracarni mountains and the Eastern coasts of Middle-earth. It is possible that here is where the Unwilling Elves might have managed to survive. I doubt any other people lived there.
Nothing is known for certain on them however.
The Oracarni mountains still remained steadfast in the Third Age, probably acting as the Eastern border of the Men of Rhun. However there is still quite a large space between the Oracarni mountains and the Eastern coasts of Middle-earth. It is possible that here is where the Unwilling Elves might have managed to survive. I doubt any other people lived there.
Nothing is known for certain on them however.
With respect to the question of the Avari in Beleriand: a passage in 'Of Dwarves and Men' reads 'It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.' This post-dates the accounts given in Quendi And Eldar, but in any case references from Q&E include...
Sindarin 'Somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South.'
Abarī 'Such Avari as came into Beleriand were, as has been said, called Morben, or Mornedhel.'
C. The Clan-names, with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar. 'The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar,...'
Author's Notes to Quendi and Eldar 'E’l was a Mornedhel, and is said to have belonged to the Second Clan (whose representatives among the Eldar were the ’oldor). [note 33: It is curious that - as in the original text of Maeglin, where he was 'of the kin of Thingol' - in my father's very late work on the story E’l becomes again 'one of the Eldar' (p. 328), though consumed with hatred of the ’oldor; whereas here he is a Mornedhel (one of the Avari), and moreover of the aboriginal Second Clan.]
Also (at least with respect to some Avari in Ossiriand), in a note among the Narn papers, concerning the Nandor: 'They had also picked up various Avari before they came back west to Ossiriand.' Christopher Tolkien, Commentary on ’38 Grey Annals, WJ
This does not pretend to be exhaustive in any case, just some additional stuff.
Sindarin 'Somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South.'
Abarī 'Such Avari as came into Beleriand were, as has been said, called Morben, or Mornedhel.'
C. The Clan-names, with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar. 'The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar,...'
Author's Notes to Quendi and Eldar 'E’l was a Mornedhel, and is said to have belonged to the Second Clan (whose representatives among the Eldar were the ’oldor). [note 33: It is curious that - as in the original text of Maeglin, where he was 'of the kin of Thingol' - in my father's very late work on the story E’l becomes again 'one of the Eldar' (p. 328), though consumed with hatred of the ’oldor; whereas here he is a Mornedhel (one of the Avari), and moreover of the aboriginal Second Clan.]
Also (at least with respect to some Avari in Ossiriand), in a note among the Narn papers, concerning the Nandor: 'They had also picked up various Avari before they came back west to Ossiriand.' Christopher Tolkien, Commentary on ’38 Grey Annals, WJ
This does not pretend to be exhaustive in any case, just some additional stuff.
In Tolkien's History of middle Earth vollume.10 it has a passage saying "Of old they were two leaders of the Avari Morwe & Nurwe. I don,t know what they look like but Morwe's name meant "Dark Elf" or something like that and Nurwe's is "sad elf". Not nice names are they?
It might be added that this idea seems to have been abandoned. See note 11 to Quendi And Eldar: 'The story found in the Annals of Aman of the kindreds of Morwe and Nurwe, who refused the summons of the Valar and became the Avari (X. ...) had been abandoned.'
This legend said that the Kindred of Ingwe '... and the most part of the kindreds of Finwe and Olwe were swayed and were willing to take up the March, but the kindreds of Morwe and Nurwe were unwilling' and they, seemingly with the others implied by 'most part', made up the original Avari.
In the later version it's said that the Avari hailed from the Second and Third Clans (Tatyar 'Seconds' from which hailed the Noldor, and Nelyar 'Thirds'), and that, of the small clan of the Minyar 'Firsts' (Vanyar) none became Avari, and the Tatyar were evenly divided. The proportions out of 144 were said to be...
Minyar 14 Avari 0
Tatyar 56 Avari 28 Eldar 28
Nelyar 74 Avari 28 Eldar 46 (Amanyar Teleri 20, Sindar and Nandor 26)
This legend said that the Kindred of Ingwe '... and the most part of the kindreds of Finwe and Olwe were swayed and were willing to take up the March, but the kindreds of Morwe and Nurwe were unwilling' and they, seemingly with the others implied by 'most part', made up the original Avari.
In the later version it's said that the Avari hailed from the Second and Third Clans (Tatyar 'Seconds' from which hailed the Noldor, and Nelyar 'Thirds'), and that, of the small clan of the Minyar 'Firsts' (Vanyar) none became Avari, and the Tatyar were evenly divided. The proportions out of 144 were said to be...
Minyar 14 Avari 0
Tatyar 56 Avari 28 Eldar 28
Nelyar 74 Avari 28 Eldar 46 (Amanyar Teleri 20, Sindar and Nandor 26)
About the Avari, it seems strange that alot more of the Noldor and of the Teleri refused the March, rather than to go on it.More than half of the Teleri ran away or got lost or to not continue the march is pretty creepy. What happened to those Avari. Some went(or most) to Dorwinion but what happened to the rest?Where did they go?Where did they live? I don't know why. In Dorwinion, I think they were probably part of the Noldor and Teleri tha missed the people that went. I don't know why but the Elves of Dorwinion seem pretty like the Teleri for their love of plants and of nature.But probably some of the Noldor came with them for the Noldor like the Vanyar and Teleri the most and probably they built, mined and made stuff for the Teleri and themselves I geuss.
All we know is that some ended up wandering the paths of Middle-earth and came into Beleriand, and that some were captured by Morgoth and some probably still dwelt in the far east of Middle-earth, far east of the Men of Rhun around the Orocarni mountains and do not come into tales.
Thread revived for Ammornil
Thank You, Galin. I will set this as link in Elven Guild for all interested to read.
I have often wondered about all this as well as it seemed to me a great number was somehow unaccounted for.
Because my time is so limited could anyone tell me specifically where you found the information that gives you the answers to this, say chapter such and such in this book.
I would be very grateful.
Because my time is so limited could anyone tell me specifically where you found the information that gives you the answers to this, say chapter such and such in this book.
I would be very grateful.
I would look in the back of The Silmarillion to the chart entitled 'The Sundering of the Elves and some of the names given to their divisions' and then check out "Avari" and "Dark Elves" in that book's index and follow page numbers given there. Of course someone may have a section of one of the twelve H.O.M.E. volumes that is more succinct.
I'm surprised somebody hasn't yet made a Moli’re pun in this thread.
Most of us here don't know the difference between Tartuffe and Truffles, so you may as well make the pun so we can do our ubiquitous groan and get on with life. 
I am wondering did some of Avari later come to the west(I mean Beleriand) and were they all transformed into orcs? 
With respect to the question of the Avari in Beleriand: a passage in 'Of Dwarves and Men' reads: 'It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.' This post-dates the accounts given in Quendi And Eldar, although I gave those references as well (above in this thread).
If Orcs were in origin Elves (that's if), there must have been plenty of Avari that remained in any case.
JRRT, Quendi And Eldar
If Orcs were in origin Elves (that's if), there must have been plenty of Avari that remained in any case.
Quote:
'But the Loremasters of later days, when more friendly relations had been established with Avari of various kinds in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin, record that it was frequently to be found in Avarin dialects. These were numerous, and often as widely sundered from one another as they were from the Eldarin forms of Elvish speech; but wherever the descendants of *kwendī were found, they meant not 'Elves in general', but were the names that the Avari gave to themselves.'
'But the Loremasters of later days, when more friendly relations had been established with Avari of various kinds in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin, record that it was frequently to be found in Avarin dialects. These were numerous, and often as widely sundered from one another as they were from the Eldarin forms of Elvish speech; but wherever the descendants of *kwendī were found, they meant not 'Elves in general', but were the names that the Avari gave to themselves.'
JRRT, Quendi And Eldar
galin, why are you basing the proportions on 144? was that the number of elves that originally awoke?
Yes, there were said to be 144 Unbegotten Elves... in the Elvish fairy tale of the Awakening at least, which is noted in Quendi And Eldar too.
According to the Elf-child's tale (mixed with counting lore) each Elf awoke with his or her spouse.
According to the Elf-child's tale (mixed with counting lore) each Elf awoke with his or her spouse.
