Thread: The House of Finwe: what's your opinion?
<<      >>
Fingolfin's wife is finally named : Anair’ (didn't go with him to Beleriand).
Fingolfin and Finarfin have two sisters : Findis (stayed in Valinor) and Irim’ (went to Beleriand).
And Fingolfin has another son : Argon (died in the Dagor-nuin-Giliath).
All this new Elves aren't very important to the storyline, but still i find it interesting and i am glad to have the house of Finw’ a bit completed.
Apparently, Christopher Tolkien found this names only in very late writings of JRRT, which should explain why they never made it to the Silmarillion. It was also very hard to discover and include all details.
It is a bit puzzling that Orodreth is Gil-Galad's father, whilst he is Fingon's in the Sil. And Orodreth is not Finarfin's son, but Angrod's son, but this is of course a well-known mistake.
Ok for being a skillful craftsman and stuff but E’l is nothing compared to F’anor when it comes to the arts of gems and stuff like that. And Aul’ was the man for teaching F’anor stuff and never ever did he claim something later on, not even the Sils did he claim for he knew the value of a craftmans work for his own.
And what the heck has happened to this site?!
I thought it was bad enough when Taz was running it but sheez....it has gone completely AWOL!
Planet-Tolkien my ****!!
You are entitled to your opinion about the site, but please respect our rules about not swearing while doing so..... Edited by Valedhelgwath
Turgon, Turgon, Turgon. He bookends Quenta Silmarillion nicely; without Feanor there's no beginning; without Turgon there's no ending, or if there is it's far more bleak. Of all the Noldor he listened to Ulmo most and understood him best; at the end it was love as much as pride that restrained him from completely embracing his counsel, and who can blame him? How he crafted a city to rival T’na itself, then moved all of his people and finally himself there with no hint of it coming to Morgoth (or anyone else for that matter) I'll never know. Feanor is, of course, the finest artisan of the Quendi, much less the Noldor, but Turgon gave him a run for his money, even surpassing him in some respects (Feanor was no architect, and Turgons version of the Two Trees are unique in the history of Middle-Earth.) In the end, his friendship with at least one of the Children of Men was comparable to Finrods, and unlike Thingol, he was not convinced to give his daughter, but did so willingly and enthusiastically. His foresight surpassed virtually all of the Noldor, and he never expected to overcome Morgoth by force of arms, engaging him only at the behest and in the aid of his kinsmen. Little is said of him in the wars of the Noldor, save for the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (whose Quenya name I shan't attempt, as I always misspell it; too many vowels.) In LT2 we find that he retreats to his tower at the Fall of Gondolin and there awaits the end amidst grief and despair, but his foresight and memory of the words of Ulmo and Huor were to prove the salvation of all the Chldren of Eru.
Yikes, talk about my great timing! I've found that I can generally respect the site rules and preserve the sense of my statements by use of initial and terminal letters interspersed with asterisks on the rare occasions temptation is unavoidable...
And, of course, I should have said "when temptation is irresistable," or more to the point when I can't manage resistance (I really do know better, but old habits die hard.) Unavoidable is expecting a bit much from life.
OK, ok, fine, I'll add my own opinion then before we get a move on... My favourite character is, of course, Finrod. And second maybe would be Galadriel or Fingolfin. I've never really thought anything particular about Fingolfin. But after reading the part of his duel with Morgoth I think a LOT about him ( somewhere in the Lays of Beleriand there was an account of it, much better than the Silmarillion version). I admire his strength very much, though it always seemed to me that he was just some sort of a warrior sort of character. You don't really see him in another light.
And his sons were ok too. I'll agree with Morambar that he had a lot of foresight, which makes me feel that he is more of Finarfin's sort than Fingolfin's. But still, the fallof Gondolin was a chapter I re-read a good deal... And Fingon. I liked the way he rescued Maedhros. That friendship was very unlikely, but it was touching. And it's also why my favourite from Feanor's sons is Maedhros (though sometimes I mix him up with Maglor ). But apart from that I don't really know Fingon. He didn't really do much.
All right. So now we can talk about Finarfin's house now, right?
My favourite would be, as I said, Finrod. I've always thought him more of a wiser Elf. He had a lot of compassion and kindness. His friendship with the Men, his holding on to his Oath, his sacrifice for Beren (all could be read of in the Lays of Beleriand) were really just a part of him. Read of the debate between him and Andreneth and you'll see his real compassion for Men and his willingness to learn more of them. Also you'll see his wisdom (which, of course he had) as he debated. And most of all, the connection between him and Ulmo was great. Ulmo told him to build Nargothrond. And then we come to another big subject. Nargothrond. It was the vastest city in Beleriand, as Tolkien said (somewhere). And in full splendour, too. Maybe not as much as Gondolin, but then, it wasn't hidden... I was so sad at the fall of Nargothrond. It seemed so tragical. Doriath and Gondolin and Nargothrond all fall. It's like nothing so beautiful will ever be built again.
And then there are the other members of this house. Don't forget Orodreth, who was "most like his father" with his gentle ways (and his daughter Finduilas). Or Angrod and Aegnor, who we don't know much about. And most of all Galadriel. She was the only Noldor Exile who survived to the end of the Third Age. And she had undergone a great big change. That's most remarkable, of course. That she was so full of desire and pride in the First Age, but became so full of wisdom and sorrow at the end of the Third Age. When I read the Sil I really found her quite un-likeable. She even seemed sort of like Feanor in her pride, even though she disliked him. But then, after the LOTR you know a lot more. I wish the Sil could've told us a bit more about her coming to the east. The UT does so, but it's still a bit vague. There are many different versions.
And then there are the other members of this house. Don't forget Orodreth, who was "most like his father" with his gentle ways (and his daughter Finduilas). Or Angrod and Aegnor, who we don't know much about.
Orodreth given as Finarfin's son in the Sil is an editorial (and admitted) mistake by Christopher Tolkien. Orodreth is given as Angrod's son in HOME, which is the correct way. It's also debatable that Gil-galad is given as Fingon's son, whilst in HOME he's mentioned as Orodreth's son.
Furthermore, the Noldor family tree in the Sil is incomplete. A more complete tree can be found in HOME. The Sil doesn't mention Finw’'s daughters (there are two daughters in later versions), and Fingolfin's and Angrod's wives, for instance.
What's been troubling me a lot is that question of Gil-galad's heritage. Everyone knows he was of the royal line of the Noldor, but who's son was he?? I keep on thinking of him as Fingon's son still, though he is also mentioned as Orodreth's son, and somewhere in HOME, he's mentioned as Finrod's son! But I dont think he's Finrod's son, since Tolkien said there was the question of Finrod's beloved Amarie, but as Orodreth's son? Well, maybe...It's just that that would mean that the Kingship of the Noldor passed in the end to Finarfin's House... very interesting...
It's just that that would mean that the Kingship of the Noldor passed in the end to Finarfin's House... very interesting...
I guess Gil-galad was made Fingon's son by Christopher Tolkien to bypass some difficulties with the kingship passing to the House of Finarfin.
As Gil-galad was Angrod's grandson, then why would he be made High King after Fingon's death, when both Orodreth and Finrod would be still alive? This doesn't make any sense, that's why Gil-galad should be thought of as Fingon's son within the context of the Silmarillion.
Not to mention, if the line of Fingolfin would end, the High Kingship would (de iure) pass to Finarfin back in Valinor, whilst in Beleriand there wouldn't be anyone of the House of Finarfin left, safe Galadriel who by then had already left Beleriand to live in Eriador. It seems that the High Kingship would have to be passed back to the House of F’anor, which would be totally unacceptable.
What would happen if Fingolfin would return from the Halls of Mandos (like Finrod did) in the Blessed Realm, is yet another question.
As Gil-galad was Angrod's grandson, then why would he be made High King after Fingon's death, when both Orodreth and Finrod would be still alive?
When Fingon died, Turgon was made High King, and when Turgon died both Finrod and Orodreth were dead. So it would still pass to Gil-galad, as he was the only Noldorin prince left who wasn't a son of Feanor.
The high kingship of the Noldor will always belong to Finwe, of course, because one day he may come out of Mandos, and while he doesn't, all the other Noldor lords may just be viewed as temporary kings who govern in Finwe's place. Which is why Feanor said "usurp my father's love" and not "usurp the crown". For the crown would ever belong to Finwe, and while he dwelt in Mandos it just meant that he was temporarily unable to wear it. Elves are immortal, aren't they? They don't die until Arda beaks.
For the crown would ever belong to Finwe, and while he dwelt in Mandos it just meant that he was temporarily unable to wear it. Elves are immortal, aren't they? They don't die until Arda beaks.
Elves can die, their spirits just don't leave Arda, as they're bound to it. Either way, Finw’ would probably never leave the Halls of Mandos as his beloved first wife M’riel Serind’ was there (and she would never leave the Halls of Mandos again, which was the reason why Finw’ was given the right to remarry).
When Fingon died, Turgon was made High King, and when Turgon died both Finrod and Orodreth were dead. So it would still pass to Gil-galad, as he was the only Noldorin prince left who wasn't a son of Feanor.
I still think that it wouldn't have passed to Gil-galad if he wasn't of Fingolfin's line, as he was so young when he became King. Maedhros only passed the Kingship to Fingolfin and his house, not to Finarfin and his House. I feel that Maedhros would've taken his 'title' back.
It's all the confusion of the title things that being able to be reborn makes...
About Elvish 'reincarnation' : if Elves that leave the Halls of Mandos really get reborn (which in some cases would involve their mothers to get pregnant again out of nowhere), it is technically impossible that Finw’ ever returns as he was one of the Elves that awoke at Cuivi’nen - and hence doesn't have any parents (the same holds for M’riel Serind’, as each of the 144 Elves which awoke in Cuivi’nen, awoke next to his/her spouse).
That's why i like to think that Elves that return from the halls of Mandos (Finrod is a definite example, Glorfindel isn't), don't get reborn, but just transcend their soul into a new made body (Aul’ could make them a replica), or in some cases in the old, preserved body if that one's still available and taken care of by the servants of Est’.
The method of reincarnation that he gives the most time to explaining is the one in which spirits leaving Mandos enter the body of an unborn child still in the womb. After he wrote this, however, Tolkien appeared to realise that this would effectively rob the new parents of a child that was purely made by them, for as well as contributing to the bodies of their children, as humans do, elves also contribute to the spirit. In order to circumvent this problem, Tolkien explained that the spirit leaving Mandos would submerge itself within the new baby, which would have its own spirit too. As the child grew, memories of the past life would slowly emerge, and the old spirit would meld with the new. Such elves were said to be especially enriched, for they eventually had the memories of two (or more) childhoods, a time especially sacred to elves.
Regarding Finwe being reunited with Miriel in Mandos.... I'm not sure that would be possible either. It was due to Miriel's death, and the wish of Finwe to produce more children, that Manwe had to set decrees about elven marriage in the first place. As Elves cannot divorce, and their fea do not die, potentially they are married for all time. Manwe, therefore decreed that elves could only marry again if the spirit of the spouse in Mandos agreed to never leave the Halls ever again, so the living elf could take a new spouse knowing the old marriage was totally finished. As Elves in Mandos sit in silent contemplation, however, I don't see them as socialising with lost loved ones when they enter the Halls anyway. I always had the impression spirits in mandos were there in solitude.
Virumor will move back to Edoras, though. Those thatched barns and feisty, caged women do have a certain je ne sais quoi... flair.
A better reason is that after the Second Age, there just weren't enough Noldor left to rule over, and the ones that stayed behind were older (and greater) than Elrond : Glorfindel, Galadriel,...
As matter of fact, I think Galadriel might be the best candidate for the title since she was the only one of the 'leaders' of the Rebellion that stayed behind after the First Age (according to the Sil).
In place of a High King there would be a High Queen, beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night, fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain, dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning, stronger than the foundations of the earth. All would love her and despair.
Again, it'd take a woman to do a man's job.
Certainly Galadriel isn't going to say, "Hey, Daddy: off my throne!"
I'm not too sure about that. I can imagine her saying "Be gone, father, Middle-earth is mine! Go back hiding behind the robes of the Valar!"
She orchestrated the disappearance of Nimrodel and Amroth, and became the mistress of L’thlorien. Cunning, m'lady.
That said, I think the kingship stays with the House of Fingolfin IF said House is around and wants it; Galadriel didn't dispute Gil-Galads claim. I don't think either she or Elrond do though.
He had to have Numenor make a special law on behalf of women rulers, right?
Yeh, and that was only because there wasn't any other choice, i reckon. Pretty much like what's going on with the emperial family of Japan atm.
The bond and friendship between Fingon and he, obviously was a contributing factor, yet Maedhros obviously was different from his brothers; both in his 'moral code' and his thirst for power (with respect to his 'C' brothers; Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin.)
**A random thought and a bit choppy, but there she is!**
Yet in the end, even they fell under the Oath they had taken upon themselves. Too bad.
Do you find it strange that Free Will is noted in much of the doings of the "good" creatures of Middle-earth yet in the great song that sang everything into existence it would seem that everything sung would come to pass? Thus, the "bad" elves like F’anor were trapped in the song and were acting on behalf of Iluvatar to make things come to fruition. Why did Finw’'s first wife have such a strange fate? Why was Finw’ allowed to remarry? Should we blame F’anor for being the vessel of Eru? Same with E’l, they were both despicable in their ways but without these elves, and a few others, the song of creation would be flawed. Good would not be good and bad would not be evil, for they need each other to produce the best of both.
I don't blame F’anor or his offspring, in fact, I feel sorry for them in getting caught up in the destiny planned for Arda. So much for Free Will!
Point being, he didn't have to go about it as he did, defy the Valar to their face with both his Oath and Exile. He CHOSE to, and if it was part of his destiny, if Morgoth manipulated him into it, still, no one put a gun to his head and made him: he came to the decision on his own and made it on his own, thus he's accountable. It's a very complicated and nuanced issue, one that lies at the heart of the Professors personal beliefs, but free will is very real, even if prescience makes decisions foreknown.
See the Eru's thoughts thread for this, anyway. I'm not going into this topic again in this thread, since it's not only off topic, but since I'm tired of this discussion as well.
Regarding Finwe being reunited with Miriel in Mandos.... I'm not sure that would be possible either.
Well, actually in the HoME Volume 10, Morgoth's Ring, Finwe does actually meet Miriel and the whole affair of Finwe having two wives and how the Valar sought to justify the sitiation is told of in detail.
But Mandos was unmoved. And the body of Miriel lat at rest in Lorien, until the escape of Melkor the Marrer and the Darkening of Valinor. In that evil time Finwe was slain by the Marrer himself, and his body was burned as by lightning stroke and was destroyed. Then Miriel and Finwe met again in Mandos, and lo! Miriel was glad of the meeting, and her sadness was lightened; and the will in which she had been set was released.
Afterwards, through the prayers of Nienna, Miriel re-enters her body, but Finwe is doomed to stay forever in the Halls of Mandos as a ransom for Miriel's reincarnation. Miriel then awakes in Lorien, but has no desire to return to her own folk, for the strife of the Noldor has aggrieved her, and she enters the House of Vaire and becomes Vaire's chief handmaid, weaving the great deeds of the Noldor into tapestries, and Finwe was allowed to look upon the tapestries sometimes. Indis, still living, most likely returns to the Halls of the Vanyar, away from the troubles of the Noldor.
I have often read this part concerning Finwe, the head of the family that is so less explored in the Silmarillion, and his two wives. It certainly lets us know a lot more about what is dealt with in a few quick pages in the Silmarillion.
I have often thought it strange that Mandos would permit Miriel to go into the world of the living again, even if Finwe is willing to pay her ransom by his imprisonment in the Halls. Because if Miriel lives in the same world as Indis, then wouldn't there be two women who could claim to be Finwe's wife living at the same time? Even though Miriel claims that "Indis hath her love", it is "unlawful for one to have two wives" and though Finwe is absent in the picture, it should still be unlawful for his two wives to be co-existing since he was allowed to take his second wife on the grounds that his first wife was gone forever from the world.
But of course, this sort of confilct is resolved when Miriel never actually returns to her people but goes to the Halls of Vaire instead, where no living person has ever been.
it also makes sense in a way to show that the elves can also keep a good oath without breaking it. i think this is the reason why almost everyone likes finrod.
Yes, it's certainly the thing that Finrod is most famous for. Everyone remembers him as the one that saves Beren on his seemingly impossible quest for the Silmaril. And the Ring of Barahir is the most famous artifact of Finrod's, compared to other things like the Nauglamir, since the Ring of Barahir did survive all the way to Aragorn's finger (of course, I just realized that they made a mistake in the movie where the Ring is on Aragorn's finger; it should actually be on Arwen's finger since Aragorn gave it to her some decades ago in Lorien).
But I should like to think that it is not all that Finrod is remembered for. I mean, I see the befriending of Men a great virtue of Finrod's, that certainly makes me like him even more. I guess people like Finrod because he is much more than mere valiance or nobility. Almost all the Elf-lords were brave in battle and feared by their enemies. But Finrod has a special quality of being magnanimous and generous in addition to being fair anf valiant, which sets him apart form others and makes everyone like him. He is not jealous, arrogant, or greedy like some other Elves. I mean, even some of the "good" Elves (e.g. Thingol, Galadriel, Gwindor etc) possessed certain traits that made them somewhat problematic characters that keeps people from liking them as they like Finrod, who is not shown to be touched by greed like Thingol is, or arrogance as Galadriel is.
The poison of Morgoth did reached Finrod despite all his virtues, making him leave Valinor and fall under the Doom of Mandos, but it is just that Finrod was not as enmeshed in the whole we-have-to-get-the-Silmarils-and-we'll-never-rest-until-they're-ours thing as many of the other Elves. He just seems less dark to us and we like him for that.
"His wrath and his hate were given most to Morgoth, and yet well nigh all that he said came from the very lies of Morgoth himself; but he was distraught with grief for the slaying of his father, and with anguish for the rape of the Silmarils. He claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor, since Finw’ was dead, and he scorned the decrees of the Valar."
He had after all been told lie after lie through word of mouth stemming from Melkor and those lies told him that Fingolfin was trying to overthrow Finwe and claim kingship over the Noldor. Then he was told about Men, the aftercomers, which the Valar had kept hidden from them.
He was indeed truthful in many of his words when he was speaking to the Noldor. The Valar had just let their enemy creep into the heart of the realm and turn all into darkness. Also the Elves were in a very narrow land between the outer walls of the Pelori and Sea. And as Feanor now knew thanks to Morgoth that a new race would immerge and claim all the wide lands of middle-earty whilst they were in Valinor I think it was acceptable that he should try and persuade the Noldor to go to Middle-earth if they so choosed.
Remember that besides these lies Feanor had just been robbed of the Silmarils just when he had been summuned by Manwe to go to the festival so this must appear suspicious. Also he just had tidings that his father had been slain. Lastly the words Melkor told him about the silmarils would not be safe in any realm of the Valar, and then soon after Feanor is surrounded by them in the Ring of Doom and they are asking for the release of the Silmarils.
All in all he had, or thought he had, little reason to trust the Valar or stay in their realm. And if he had not left then Beleriand would have been destroyed far sooner and the realm of Doriath ended.