Very true -- and mass hysteria and dynamics of the masses are usual powered by the fear of chaos. Oh, and perhaps embarrassment or guilt, I suppose (which is the reason many soldiers went to war during the Vietnam draft even if they disagreed with it). But, I suppose it also could be seen as the fear of what others would think of them if they didn't "do their duty" (especially authority figures, such as parents, or their own conscience/superego).

Ah! But oddly enough even such strange quantum theories result in an "world" which follows certain rules, and these rules can be observed thus revealing the system behind it. Basically, you don't need to know how the computer work in order understand the rules of solitaire.

If you were thinking philosophy more than quantum physics, me myself quite liked Kants view.
To go as far as Descartes only makes you doubt the point of getting out of bed. Or am I still sleeping? Hmmm..

Descartes, Kant.... reminds me of the Monty Python song.... The Philosopher's Song (I think)(therefore I might be)



Have we wandered off topic, do you think?

Well they know the universe is constantly expanding, hence it being infinite! What exactly is it expanding into? That is a question humans may never figure out.

Theories, theories, theories. Bla, bla, bla. Look at us : we can barely reach the moon. We're stuck on this third rock from the sun for all eternity. Our eternal prison.

The only chance you got, is getting abducted by aliens from the planet Crackpot.

And Eru willing, we won't have to wake up one morning confronted by the announcement that this tiny, insignicant rock we have called our home, is today scheduled for demolishment in order to make way for a hyperspace by-pass.

OK. Things seem to have gone a bit quiet around here, so I thought I'd stir things up a little.

Let's see then. Hmm. After reading the opening chapters of the Silmarillion 4 times, going through the Assignment 1 in the Silmarillion Reading Discussion Groups thread and also this very thread, I've got things to say.

Since we're currently talking about free will here, I'll continue with it.

In the opening chapters of the Silmarillion, there is a mention of Arda reaching it's true potential before the end. (Please also see my posts in the Assignment 1 and Assignment 2, as they might also be worth a mention in this thread.)

I recently had a chat with Val and it brought up some interesting points. Now, here's a part of the chat log about this "True potential of Arda" topic:



Now, Val was kind enough to get me the exact post on this:



And then he followed up with:



Now I don't know the "Menelmacar star constellation (Swordsman of the Sky, or Orion)" part, because I'm still only on "Of The Flight Of The Noldor", but I thought better to quote this too.

Please also refer to the Saruman thread. I also talked about Saruman to Val. Here's the log :



I hope you've read the Assignment 2. Now, looking at the situation with Mandos, can we assume for a minute here that Eru knows as that's happening and all that is going to happen in the Middle Earth?



So, in the end, to what extent do we consider the free will? If Saruman had been acting according to Eru's plans, why should he be banned? If Mandos knows all, shouldn't Saruman be allowed to his halls? The A B C D plan mentioned here earlier comes into picture here again and also does the whole "Comic book" explaination. Do we look at this "free will" topic as a combination of both?

There have been many discussions on free will - is it or isn't it? Several theories are reasonable.

However, does free will depend on randomness? Are the actions that certain characters take random thus indicating free will or does what went before effect those actions? The fact that Eru knew what would happen does not mean he controlled it. It means he knew what went before and how it would effect those future actions. Therefore, those actions are not random but part of a pattern. Our problem is that with our puny mortal human brains we are simply unable to see the patterns as Eru can.

I found this in HOME part 1

Guys, you are AMAZING. You wouldn't BELIEVE how much I have learnt from reading the last page of thsi thread alone. I havd no IDEA about the whole Turin thingy. You see, I haven't read the HOME series, because i just CAN'T GET MY HANDS ON THEM!!!!! But over the years, I'm going to beg my mum to buy me a book each Christmas and birthday. But not THIs christmas. I've already begged for Tree and Leaf and the Father Christmas letters, which will have to be shipped from Pommyland. Thanks. But now is the time for ME to pitch in, on a different note.



But four istari DID fail. *dashes inside to get her copy of the Unfinished Tales* And there were more than five, by the way.




Then there's a great deal about how great Gandalf was, and hwo no one knows what happened to the Blue WIzards, but they failed also anyways.

The fact that only one succeeded was the point I was actually making Loni. I was giving Floyd examples of where Eru rather giving one person a pre-destiny, maybe gave multiple beings the same choices in the hope that one of them managed to fulfill that "destiny" by free will.

That letter, Grondy, just about sums up the Eru situation for us. I must get that book.

Ah, I see what you mean now, Val. I thought you meant a few goodies, as in Elves and Men failed, they sent the Istari, so as to keep everything running smoothly. You mean a few ISTARI!!!! I get it!!!! *ding*

Dark Duelist, yes the choice of evil is always there, but one cannot be wholly evil without there being evil already innate in that person...otherwise they are only pseudo-evil, which is much less menacing and far more like the lovable badguy, who is not evil but merely misunderstood.

And anyway, what in tarnation does that have to do with Eru's thoughts?

Melkor wasn't evil yet in the beginning, when he tried to set the Music of the Ainur to his hand. Only after Eru changed the Music of the Ainur and told the Valar to create Arda according to the vision of the Music Eru showed them, Melkor became evil, as he wanted to create Arda according to his own vision, and not to Eru's vision : he wanted to create Arda alone and rule over Arda alone, for all eternity.

Melkor became evil because he fought against the Arda the other Valar built, as this was not the Arda according to his vision. Not accepting the Creation and doing everything to destroy it so it can be rebuilt according to one's own plans, is the very definition of evil.

Whether it was in Eru's plan to have Manw’ as the personification of "good" and Melkor as the personification of "evil", is another issue : i believe it wasn't in Eru's plan, as Eru became very angry after Melkor kept on spoiling the Music - if Melkor's misbehavior would have been in Eru's "masterplan", then Eru wouldn't have lost his temper and Eru wouldn't have been forced to correct what Melkor did to the Music.

Besides, if Eru really would've controlled everything, he wouldn't have let the Valar replay the Music he played for them - and hence incorporate the Valar's own interpretations in the Music - but he would've played the Music himself and create Arda himself. He didn't do that, hence there is no big masterplan of what was going to happen when. The only thing that Eru set, was that eventually Melkor's influences in Arda would not prevail. That he did by correcting the Music.

It seems that Eru wanted to create Arda through the Valar, instead of doing it alone. It's like he wanted to get himself a glass of water, but instead of doing it himself, he ordered thousands of waiters (or wives ;-) ) to get it for him. Eru just created some powerful spirits -angels if you will- to do the major part of his work. Hence he gave this angels free will and their own characters, just like what the biblical God did when he created his angels. God also didn't foresee or plan the war in heavens, when the archangel Sammael revolted against God -- the war in heavens can be compared with the first War of the Valar.

So to me it seems that Eru didn't control the minds of the Valar after he created them. He only determined the particular field of power the Valar would have, but he didn't determine their character. He determined that Melkor and Manw’ would both be very powerful, and equal in power.

But the big 2 weren't equal in character : Melkor was selfish and Manw’ wasn't. And that's why everything happened like it did.

"But why did Eru want the glass of water?"


I reckon he had a heavy drinking session the previous night doing all his creating, devising and composing - a sore head demands a glass of water!

I'm missing something here, Virumor. I understand what you are trying to say, but I think you are making some assumptions that can't be made. First and foremost, Eru did not correct Melkor's music - He simply stated to Melkor, along with the other Ainur, that while Melkor's attempts in the short run both disrupted the music of all the themes that were purposed, "he that attempteth [to alter the music in my despite] shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." This is not a correction, but simply an admonishment, and this admonishment and the shame that Melkor felt because of it is what turned Melkor to his "evil" ways. Eru knows both the starting point and the end point, and allows the Ainur, Maiar, Eldar, Men, etc. their own influence, according to their stature, in what road is taken between the two points. The bottom line is, however, that Eru's influence will in the end allow good to supersede evil, by taking that which is evil and eventually turning it to good purpose.

In addition, Eru never punishes Melkor - He leaves that to the Ainur. It is they who hunted Melkor down, bound him and thrust him into the void. Kinda like letting your children settle their differences between themselves. Eru never speaks directly of evil - that concept is borne of the Ainur and of the Children of Iluvatar. Eru simply holds to the tenet that nothing can change what He has intended for the end - perverting something of His creation will only in the end work out to the greater glory of His design.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. I took your suggestion and read this passage in 1977, and have read it at least a score more times since then. In my interpretation of this, which admittedly is all either of us have, Iluvatar began a second theme not to correct, but with a different thought in mind.


[

I see this not as a correction, nor as interference. Instead I see it as "let's try again". And when Melkor contended with the second theme, Iluvatar began yet a third theme different from the others. Imagine if you would a band director with half of his orchestra missing page three and playing page four instead, and so on. "Let's try again.

The history of Middle-Earth has a very similar feel. Whatever the Valar attempted, Melkor would attempt to ruin, and was frequently successful. The Eldar appeared(the second theme), and the Valar decided it would be best if they brought them to Valinor to abide with them, in order to protect them from Melkor. Again, Melkor is succesful in thwarting their desires to a great extent. As men appeared and began their time in ME, Melkor wrought havoc both with the men themselves and between Eldar and Edain. Men were given Numenor, yet Sauron(left to take over after Melkor is thrust into the void) continues his master's works, and corrupts Numenor to the point of destruction. Now comes the third theme, with thesundering of the seas and the removal of Valinor. Elves and men are left to fend for themselves in a newly mapped Middle-Earth, and eventually the age of the Rings of Power.




Sauron's most triumphant note was the One Ring, and the peoples of Middle-Earth were able to use it against him, as the destruction of it caused the destruction of all he had built with it.

I see the first theme as the time prior to the appearance of the elves. The second theme is the first and second ages of Middle-Earth, and the third theme is the Third age and beyond. Again, more like "try again" than anything else.

Ainulindale - The Silmarillion

LOL

Do not go to the Elfstone, for he shall say both yes and no...

Ha, ha, ha!

Seriously though, I think you both have made some great points, and as I said, I think both of you are right in your own way because I think there is a bit of both in the overall truth to the matter.

I need to do some more investigating on this in Letters’

I did, a while ago, but I didn't got a good answer or insightfull post on it

Loni, the books are available in paperback sets as well as the old hardcovers. If you have a way of doing it, ebay is a wonderful source for old Tolkien items. I hope I am not breaking a rule by posting that. If so, I apologize to the powers that be...

Not with my parents. Ebay is a no-no. Dad refuses to co-operate with anything that includes the internet and buying stuff. And he's the only one apart from me who can use a computer without asking things like "So.... How do I save this.... document, you called it?" But it's not the trouble of finding places to get them from, it's asking my parents to buy them. You see, I've just got three Tolkien books shipped specially from Pommyland because New Zealand didn't have them. You wouldn't BELIEVE how much one of them cost, considering it was paperback and looked like it was typed by a typewriter. And I can only get Tolkien books on Christmas or my birthday. And I just lately got the three LOTR soundtrack sheet music books, $45 bucks apiece. And considering I'm getting the 50th anniversary edition of LOTR for my birthday AND christmas put together ($185, with two new hobbit family trees, new illustrations, THE HIGHEST QUALITY packaging (with a little embroidered thingy of the Eye, the pages of Mazarbul and other stuff).... And there's also the 50th anniversary edition of the hobbit too. Well, it's going to be a while before I can get them. I cost alot. I hope when I have a kid, they'll be content with borrowing my copies of things. It's lucky my Mum will actually buy such stuff for me, seeing as she thinks Tolkien 'was a loony and a crackpot and a weirdo nerd' (her words)

I know, so much has been discussed already I have seen Laurelindhe also asking quite a lot: what were Eru's thoughts, so I think we are far from done here.

I just think that if Melkor is a part from Eru, it somehow makes Eru more perfect. I just don't think someone can be fully good, not even Eru, without a slighest part of Evil inside theml. As Ghandi said: Evil is, good or truth misplaced. Somewhere, something went wrong with Melkor and his evil surfaced.

I am just wondering.. if Eru was that powerful, why did he let Melkor or Sauron for that matter play such a role? Did he had a role for Melkor when he weaved the musics? Did he had Melkor in mind as an evil influence to exceed the elves and men to their outer limits to fight it?



Awwww

Because of their shorter life span Men also hold the key to success against Sauron - hope and striving against all odds, while elves prefer to keep things unchanged and hide away from the evil. Unlike elves who have countless ages to perfect things, Men have but a short time to burn brightly. Perhaps another name for the Undying Lands would be Unchanging Lands.