Ah, that is the beauty of the argument, if people thought he was foisting a religion on them they would reject it out right, but by passing it off as literary fiction, he was able to hook them and gather great numbers of followers, some of whom frequented websites dedicated to the furtherance of his myths.

That was a good arguement Grondy

Good call, Darous...I feel like when it's all over, (assuming there'll be something when it's all over...haha) we'll each look around and go "Ohhh...so that's what was really going on!"

Yeah like the Valar were gods to our ancestors at first.. but then we rejected their even excistance and started praising ONE GOD(Eru evidentially:P but not all religions like Virumor told me.....do you understand what I mean?

yeah yeah yeah.....I guess people can’t believe something that seems impossible.....why can people think that Jesus was the son of God and that Muhammed was the prophet of Allah but they can’t believe that Tolkien might be a prophet......

Can someone explain this to me??

I guess the only thing I can say is that Tolkien never claimed to be a prophet and certainly wasn't intentionaly expounding any new religion in his works, he was a practicing Roman Catholic. My comments in the previous post implying it could be so, were meant to be tongue in cheek.

[Edited on 16/5/2003 by Grondmaster]

Yes everybody....I do not intend on bad talking other religions.....it’s like this that I just think that it is POSSIBLE for Eru to be God....just as I think that it is possible that there is no God!

You see Mellie here is where the locker stands: I am no atheist but on the other hand...I am no believer.....you see? I think that it may be POSSIBLE that there is a God or multiple gods or no gods at all but just that there was this big bang a long time ago!
So do not label me for an atheist yet....neither a believer......

But thanks everyone for taking my opinions to your heart and showing YOUR opinion!

Okidey....well I see this topic isn’t going as well here as it did between me and Virumor!

I am not one that likes to label anyone, and don't like it when anyone uses labels either. find your ideas very interesting Aule. I would love to have this discussion with you sometime on a one to one basis, or even with my husband around. I believe that the 2 of you would get along very well.

Can you all be careful your replies in this thread do not become a discussion concerning religions please. It doesn't matter how civilised they are approached, someone always finishes up getting hurt feelings... Thanks.

Good Idea,lets be careful.
I have to say, it was a intresting forum.
I just feal strongly about this.lol.
Have fun with this forum yu'all.

Well there is one post I have to reply when I am not so tired....can hardly keep my eyelids open

Wise words Sam!

I don't personally belive that Tolkien was a prophet of a religion, but then again I'm not saying he's not. People find meaning where they can. To discredit and redicule Aule's idea that Tolkein was a prophet, is to discredit and redicule every religion past and pressent. Do we actually have the true words written by both Jesus and Mohamed, No. The supposed gospel of Jesus was classed as heresy by the vatican and the only gospels that stand are the gospels written by his disciples. Mohamed was illiterate and the Koran was written down for him by his followers. Either way they are both secondary accounts and as such possible to be biased by peoples veiws. Do we discredit them. No because that would be ignorant.

So we let everyone belive what they want to belive. Aule isn't hurting anyone, he isn't argueing that he is right and that everyone else is wrong. He just asked yet some of the responses on here actually make me feel shame towards the people for their quick to critism answers!

This is a Wonderfull topic. Aule, I thank you for bring it it up. Myself, I believe that I know the difference between the real world and fiction, but I am also fascinated by the concept generated by the use of 2 words in conjunction: "What if..."

Please forgive me while I wax philosophic. See, I consider myself a man of Faith. I believe. In a Divine Being. In my Soul and the Souls of others. But my faith is all encompassing of most others. Shamanic, Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Eastern, Norse, Greek and many more. I have studied camparitive religion and have cotemplated studying the Ministry.

Now, there is a thing that I read years ago that has always influenced my POV. It was Roger Zelazny's Amber Chonicles, a 5 book series starting with Nine Princes in Amber and ending with the Courts of Chaos. In these books we are given the incredible Idea of infinite realities. Where anything that can be imagined is possble. Where there are realities next to each other where only one thing is different or realities distant apart where things are radically different and all those spaces in between.

What if... What if it were true? What if somewhere in the exspances beyond our time and space there was or still is a Middle Earth? An Eru, with an Arda, Valar, Elves, Ents, Hobbits and all of the rest of it...

What if... at one time there were was a Tir Na Nog, in Ireland, long ago.. but the Tuatha De Nann felt threatened and left this realm of men for a different world, where the old ways still lingered... And what if there was or still is an Olympus and an Asgard and a Nirvana?

I don't clain to know anything. I like to read and to think and I like to believe. I don't say that this is true or that I would die defending this thought. But... What if if could be true? Or if everything was true? Out there... beyond the Veil... Beyond the depths of Time and Space. Beyond the narrow confines of this world. Would that just be cool?

However infantasmally small the chance of something like Middle Earth occurring for real is, given a universe composed of infinite space and time, the laws of probability predict anything can happen. Indeed, given infinite time, both ahead of us and behind us (and don't quote me the 13 billion years since the Big Bang, because time still existed before this point), it is almost certain that Middle Earth has existed some time in our past, and will occur again in our future. Also, given infinite space, it seems likely that there is a Middle Earth out there somewhere right now, and possibly many of them.

I love your thoughts Val and Glorfinel. I tend to think that as humans we are both terribly imaginative and too narrow-minded. In our minds we are startled by the limitless possiblities there are in the universe...but we also tend to not believe what we cannot see. I think it would be extremly hard, nearly impossible really, to reconcile these points of view. To think that there might be something out there...and to think at the same time: it's not proven, it is only guesswork...to think this way, on a large scale, it is just mind-numbing. It's so much easier to pick either one or the other and I find that's what most people do.
One thing I find extremly frightening about the time we live in is that we seem to be getting closer and closer to finding out answers to many of these 'impossible' questions, mainly through science. Before, when it was just our thoughts, when it was just our religions and our opinions explaining things, it was easier to say: I think this, another person thinks this, that's okay. But now that you have scientists giving us concrete answers to think, it's much harder to say: they may be wrong, and it's also harder to say: I may be right or wrong. And are the answers scientists give us 'true'? There are so many definitions of truth. In the practical plane, we can say, yes, they are true, there is evidence. But I don't think that satisfies us completly, I know it doesn't satisfy me.
On the other hand, if for example astronouts found out there was indeed another universe with Middle Earth, or the Tautha Da Danaan...then I would think: so here is evidence of what so many humans have thought and known in the depths of their minds for so many years. The Norse mythology did have Nine Worlds.

You have raised some excellent points Mad. Thinking about it, I agree with you.
I find it startling and frightening that in this day and age, we do know so much about the world...not each one of us personally, as you pointed out...but humankind as a majority. What will the world be when we know everything about it? Of course, I do not believe we really could know everything, but we are getting pretty darn close in some areas. I wish we could just back away, just be content with what knowledge we have right now, because I think that constant learning will diminish so much. And I don't think we really can back away, it's something human to want to know, to want to be superior, to want to know more and more because then we will be...'I think therefore I am'.
I agree that thought without barriers is too much for our system. But I also think it is good for us, we think we are so superior, we have so much pride, as you pointed out, we really need something every once in awhile to jolt us back to reality and show us we really are vulnerabe. Thought itself is so interesting and so complex. I think that in one way thought is our problem as humans, or maybe I just speak for myself...we analyze everything to death, we get so caught up in finding the answers. And then we start thinking about the concept of thought, and we really lose the larger picture. I think that a large part of human identity is thought and that will always leave us with a sense of failing because we can never know everything.

[Edited on 14/6/2003 by Samwisegamgee]

Anilorak: Dont worry so much about it being a 'Banned'topic,have fun while it lasts

.....

Grondy was very much here too!


[Edited on 14/6/2003 by Grondmaster]

Good on you Grondo!

Teach it phenomenology.

I see your point Val, and I have to agree that it sure is a grand book but then again I just love starting these wierd topics and get a discussion going it is alot of fun......and it is interesting to hear what people think......I just thought that the Valar could’ve represented the norse gods as well as the greek and roman and egyptian gods......well...if people think that this religion is crap and that is good...well I couldn’t care less....but to tell someone that THIS is true and not THAT....it’s just wrong..because the truth is actually inside everyone of us to seek....if you see where I’m going with this? There is no general truth....there is only individual truth when it comes to these matters.....


That is my opinion and I always enjoy sharing them with you guys

Ta-ta!

Quite right. Hypothesising is always good. I've enjoyed discussing your theory, even if it is impossible (which it isn't). Keep theorising.

If there is an infinite number of universes, the Tolkien is a prophet in an infinite number of them. Kinda gives you a headache thinking about it, doesn't it?

I fear I must have my say in this as well.

I believe that what Aule said COULD be possible. As he mentioned the mutli-gods of other religions, I must mention Christianity, and I do not wish to offend my christian brothers and sisters, I only wish to say what I think. As Aule mentioned the fact that the Valar could be the gods mentioned in the polytheistic religions, so could the whole LOTR triology be the true account of what is told in the Bible. Or at least some twisted retelling of a tale not yet recorded. Think about it:
The Elves are Angels. That would make the Orcs and fouler creatures the Demons. And as Orcs were originally Elves, so were Demons originally Angels. Sauron or Morgoth would obviously parellel Satan and Eru, God. The wars between the Elves and Orcs could be the war between the Angels and Demons as Satan wages war against God. Men in LOTR would represent the humans in our world that are aware of the war and do all they can to help stop it. Hobbits and some of the people of the Western world would be the innocents that don't realize what's going on. Dwarves could be the people who see what's going on but do nothing as they are too sellfish, though I do not know where that fits in here. Sadly, I must leave you all now. My father requires the computer. Good-bye for now, and I apologize if I've offended anyone with what I've said. Namarie

I wouldn't use the newsmedia as a discriminant of truth and fiction. In my experience the media today are not too bothered with keeping to the truth anymore. If it is a selling story they print it, regardless. Looking too closely into a good story might reveal it not to be true, and therefore checking background is an action to be avoided!


As I have not read that much of the master, *ducking, expecting hard, inanimate objects to be thrown at me*, I feel I don't have too much to contribute with, but.. When reading Silmarillion recently, I had the same thoughts as Mariesthrill. Also it struck me how similar the book was in form to the norse saga-litterature. The moral guidelines of the early elves also seem to be very similar to that of the early vikings. A lot of killing, and a very strong emphasis(spelling?) on family ties. Your moral obligations was first and foremost to your family and tribe, not guided by universal moral principles as the monotheistic religious moral in later european culture. (I'm counting America and Australia ++ to Europe here) That Tolkien had an extensive knowledge of history and mythology is self-evident to any reader of his books. The naming of places, people etc., alone reveals that.

My point is, finally , that when Tolkien created his own world and his own ancient history, he to some extent followed the general pattern of human development seen in our world, or at least the northern european part of it. It is impossible to view european culture separate from christianity, as it has played such a dominant role in the past ~1000 years. Also in Tolkiens life. It could have been quite impossible for him to create a world in wich the elements that shaped ours where not present, at least in one form or another. God, satan, angels, deamons, trolls and scary things in the dark woods and deep waters.. Whether these things exists or not is not really that important (from a historical viewpoint), the fact that people really believed in them shaped their actions and thus history as we know it.