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Thread: Expectations for the second Hobbit movie

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So what are we hoping for from Del Toro when it comes to the second hobbit movie?

It should be a given that the first will be fairly true to the book but the second, that's a different story...............
To start, I hope the Christopher Tolkien suit can be settled sothat relevant materials can be used. I would like to see backcutting as was done in LOTR to show the council drving the Witch King from Mirkwood. Then Gandalf can meet up with the others in time for the battle of the 5 armies. This could be followed with a medly segment showing the reopening of Moria, the building of saurons forces in Mordor etc. And it sould end with Bilbo telling happy hobbit children his story leading neatly into the beginning of Fellowship.
Gandalfs Beard
While I like the medley segement idea, I also dislike it. My dislike is simple and even evident from Tolkiens reasons for creating the appendicies. No solid story.
What I mean is that the wealth of extra background of information Tolkien had for his world was huge. But they are much more so a series of other events taking place between Hobbit and LotR instead of a singular narrative. Take for instance the reopening of Moria and Saurons forces building in Mordor. How can these two elements be linked in one narrative?
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the Nazgul taking Minas Ithial (Minas Morgul) and some major battles in Osgiliath. I would also love to see Balin taking room after room and trying to reopen Moria. Perhaps even a cameo for the Balrog could be seen. I just don't see how a 2 to 4 hour movie (remember who is producing this) could link these stories and still do them and other elements justice.
What I want is nothing short of a movies that cover the songs of the Auir through the end of LotR. What I expect is something much less.
For the second Hobbit movie I expect to see the White Council driving the Necromancer (Sauron) from Mirkwood. Followed by his return to Mordor and the marshalling of his strength. These elements would be balanced with the inaction of the White Council, the growing evil of Saruman, and the movements of Gollum in search of the Ring.
Cameos of established characters being plentiful. Theoden, Eomer, Eyowen (sp?) and Wormtoungue are easy to show up during the fall from grace of Saruman. Aragorn can be seen serving Denethor, Theoden and in the search for Gollum. He's has been a busy man. Legolas will likely get his Cameo in the first Hobbit movie. Of course Gondor scenes will have Faramir and Denethor. And if he can make it, perhaps good old Sean Bean can look good in a movie. Showing much of the work and effort Boromir put into his country. Perhaps this would also give Del Toro a chance to show the desparation that Boromir felt before being tempted by the ring. Also showing some of why the Ring tempted him so well in LotR.
After these movies I would like to see one more. In proper modern hollywood technique. Another prequel movie should be made. Simply take part of the Fellowship Prolouge and make a movie. Show the story that led to the building and execution of the Last Alliance. Good story and with an obvious climax battle. Not to mention offering a wonderful opportunity to show that Isildur wasn't as weak as the prolougue makes him out to be. He did much good including saving a sapling of the white tree from destruction at the hands of the last king of Numenor.
Show, your points are well considered and I can't say I disagree. There is only room for so much material in the second movie, but whatever way they approach it, if they can't get access to the material still controlled by Christopher Tolkien this is all moot. Ady, do you know the current status on the Tolkien suit?
Also Ady, I was wondering if you had any more current info on on the Tintin movies. I am a huge fan of Herge.

Gandalfs Beard
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":2zlk3kmm]
Also Ady, I was wondering if you had any more current info on on the Tintin movies. I am a huge fan of Herge.

Gandalfs Beard[/quote:2zlk3kmm]

It looked like dying a quick death when the money men pulled out. Because you have 2 big names working on it (jackson and spielberg), there is a larger junk than normal already spoken for and that got the bankers worried.
Regarding Christopher Tolkien: It'll be a cold day in hell when this guy agrees to work with Saul Zaentz so I wouldn't be holding my breath :cry:
I know that Del torro promised to have the perfection P.J demanded when he created the Lord of the rings triology. But I think thats a hard promise. But my expectations are that all the crew working there will really read the book and take as much as possible from it into the movie.
I hope they find a good actor for Beor. I think he has one of the more important roles so I hope they a good actor. It would not mind if he was tall and strong.
Gogo The hobbit <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />
I just hope that they can use parts of all the back story that there is in LOTR to add things that lead up to the Fellowship. There is a huge amount of it, and I agree with show on all the things suggested. That, and I hope they don't screw up the talking animals, and have some way of presenting it in a believable way.

Hi my beard =)
I am hoping that it will REALLY stay true to the books...but also possibly add some subplots in such as a glimpse of Aragorn as a ranger, or the battle between Gandalf and the Necromancer (sp?). Oh, and Legolas fighting in the Battle of Five Armies would be nice as well. That battle has intrigued me SO much...I can't wait to see it on the big screen finally! It should be massive, in my opinion.
I think, for the second movie, using the FOTR prologue would be a good idea. Then, when you watch the "5 set series" the beginning of FOTR is kinda recap on Hobbit2. It would actually look quite good.

But about Del Toro, I really don't know what to expect. Pan's Labyrinth was so far from anything Tolkien that it's kind of hard for me to judge how he will do on The Hobbit. I think the most comforting thought is the fact that Fran Walsh, Peter Jackson, and Phyllipa Boyens (sp?) will be on the script. The LOTR script was phenomenal, and, to an extent, you could say that the screenplay is one of the most important parts of a movie. For example, the Narnia script was quite bad, and in fact the language seemed quite modern. That fact took a lot away from the film, making it seem less real. With LOTR, the language was much like Tolkien, which was why it was such a hit. Although the film will have a Del Toro feel, the script will be much like LOTR. That will also help with continuity as a 5-part film.
I don't really know if the movies that he directed would make much of a difference in the way The Hobbit would be made, seeing as PJ came from a totally different background with movies, and I think people didn't expect him to do such an amazing job as he did with LOTR, so it might be that DT would do the same, but PJ and them would probably always be around to lend a second opinion.
Ahh, you are right. I always find it so funny that Peter Jackson was making cheap gore-movies, then he suddenly became the best director in the world because of one movie (I call it one movie because it's one book.)

I guess what I mean is that I don't know what kind of flavor Del Toro will bring to it. I hope his flavor will be favorable!
I would like to see the film delve into some of the unanswered questions like what caused the hatred between the dwarves and the elves. Also I think it should show more of Arwen and Aragorns early years.
The hatred between Dwarves and Elves goes a long time further back than the Hobbit. But maybe someone could mention it.
The problem with showing why the Elves and Dwarves hate eachother is which reason you want to chose. For starters there is the fact that Eru/Lluvatar, the absolute God figure of MiddleEarth, created Elves and Men. One of the Valar, a sort of high angel or low god, Named Aule created the Dwarves. By the grace of Eru he allowed Aule's creations to remain in the world, but fortold that much strife would arise between them. It is said that Dwarves harbor a certain subcouncious hatred for the "pretty" elves. Dwarves are short and hardy due to Aule's creation of them in direct contract to the terror that Melkor was created on Earth.
Then a nice new big hatred started with the Silmarils. If you interested in the whole story, please read the Silmarillion. But on of the jewels was recovered by King Thingol (elf). He also had a Dwarven Necklace (I forget the name) of unsupassed beauty. He then contracted dwarves to set the Silmaril in the Necklace. But when the work was done, such greed entered the hearts of the Dwarves that they slew Thingol and attempted to flee with Necklace & Silmaril. Long story short, the slaying of Thingol lead to the downfall of Doriath and one of the last few Elven Kingdoms to fall before Morgoth was finally overthrown.
Much later the elves of Hollin and the Dwarves of Kazadum would make a great friendship. As seen by the doors to Kazadum (Moria) in LotR. What ended that one I'm not sure. But I believe it was Sauron and the Rings of Power.
In the movie mention of the Fall of Moria to Orcs and the Balarog might come up, but any further backstory on the Dwarves I don't see happening.
Interesting to note though is that Thorin Oakenshield earned the ekename Oakenshield in battle at the gates of Moria. That could find it's way into a prolouge for Hobbit if they find a nice was to do it.
2nd movie.
Should start with Saruman communicating with Minas Tirith via Palantir, discussing the threat in Mirkwood. Saruman tries to convince Ecthelion that there is nothing to worry about. End transmission. There will be various other scenes of Saruman surveying the land with the palantir throughout the movie. We have Gandalf and Galadriel in Lorien, also discussing the topic. Galadriel annoyedly remarks that she tried to get Saruman to hold a meeting of the white council but he refused. There will be Aragorn and Arwen's first meeting, and a plot dump full of Aragorn backstory. There is a scene with Saruman perusing old maps. We hear him muttering, "Isildur- Anduin..." and running his finger along an old map. He smiles and we see for the first time something sinister about him.
For a nice change of pace, Elrohir and Eldoran (I think that's their names) will encounter a party of orcs on the Gladden fields, searching the river. There's a decent battle sequence, and upon inspection of a corpse in the aftermath Elrohir notices that their shields bear the red eye. He says nothing but he shares a meaningful glance with Eldoran.
Aragorn meets Arwen again. This time they get a chance to talk, and Aragorn makes a complete fool of himself. Arwen rejects him.
Elrohir and Eldoran are back in Rivendell. They tell their father about the orcs, mentioning that Sauron's forces had never gone so far North. He frowns but, again, says nothing.
Gandalf and Saruman are sitting together in Orthanc, along with a dusty old book. Gandalf tells Saruman about the orc party. Saruman's eyes flash for another moment, and we again see the evil, ambitious side of him, for just a split second. Then he explains about his findings, and admits (ever so carefully so as to make it appear that everyone was wrong except for him) that the ring was lost in the Gladden fields where Isildur died, and that if there are orcs searching the Anduin, that means Sauron is looking for the ring. Gandalf expresses the urgency of this matter, and implores Saruman to hold a white council meeting immediately, as Galadriel requested. Saruman does not like being told what to do, but grudgingly agrees.
A scene very much like the council of Elrond, in which Saruman acts arrogantly but subtly, trying to influence everyone's decisions on the matter. It seems most people have their minds made up, though, and the final resolution is a full-out attack on Dol Guldur.
There are multiple scenes of preparation for war, and Aragorn being a knob again. Then, there is an epic half-an-hour battle scene at Dol Guldur, intercut with various conflicts between characters. There is a tribute to the final battle of Dol Guldur, where Galadriel summons a storm. Anyway, heaps of visual effects, city gets destroyed, Sauron moves out, wood-elves move in, all's well.
Except for the end montage, in which we see a half-constructed Barad-Dur, with a palantir resting in the darkness. A thicker blackness rests around it, and fire licks the inside of the palantir. Cuts to Saruman holding the Orthanc palantir firmly in his outstretched hand, a strange light in his eyes. Fade out.

And that's it, because, let's face it, nothing else important happens for another thirty years or so. Then, Frodo goes to live with Bilbo, Arwen falls for Aragorn, Aragorn actually gets to do some exciting stuff. Then, another couple of decades later, there's all the stuff with Gollum, and the dwarves and Moria. Which is why I think there should be a third prequel, with the climax being the orcs attacking the Mirkwood elves, and the subsequent escape of Gollum, in which we find out about Frodo, we resolve Aragorn/Arwen's thread, and we learn what's happened to the ring. This is the problem, I guess, when you give a film a sixty year time frame.
I would agree as far as the whole not having enough time in one movie to do all the prequel stuff. There is alot of thing that happen but i'm excited to see what they do with everything and i hope the whole lawsuit thing works out because i really really want them to be able to use that meterial for the movie. Although i'm not really sure what to expect I hope they put Elrond's twins in! That would be amazing. I'm glad that Peter Jackson is doing the script and all that because even if Del Torro has a little bit different of a style the script will have the same style and it's hard to change what's in the script simply by directing it a bit differently. As far as the Aragorn and Arwen back story Ithink that would be an excellent thing for them to put in it would be awsome to see them together more because in LOTR they are separate so much that you don' t really get much of their story. The White Council would almost be a requirement for the second movie though because of how they are central to all the main decisions for everything between The Hobbit and LOTR but maybe that's just me.
I definitely agree that the White Council is crucial. In fact, I think the story of the White Council and driving the Witch King (Sauron) from Mirkwood are the most critical elements for the second film because that sets the scene for the beginning of TLOTR.

Happy Holidays
[b:3ea45cjz]Gandalfs Beard[/b:3ea45cjz]
My expectations of the second movie is quite simply:

- to see the white council!
- to see the corruption of Saruman the white!
- to see the first meeting of Aragorn and Arwen and how the blossom to fall in love.
- I think also to see Aragorn trying to find Gollum

There is so much more that needs to be added in aswell I believe, some sort of a battle? or just something else to fit in the missing points between the hobbit and the lord of the rings to make them fit in together, this film should deffinetly try to bring is into the lord of the rings movies.

There is also a chance the old hobbits - Billy boyd, Domonic monaghan, sean astin and eligah woods will be making an appearence, from the source of UK's GMTV billy boyd made an appearence and there was a question about the hobbit, as they asked "will you and your friends who played hobbits be returning to middle earth?" and he responded "I'm not sure whats going on in the future but you'll have to wait and see". (that might not have been what was said exactly but you never know this could be an indication for either the 1st or 2nd movie, most likely the 2nd)

I do hope they return! Especially pippin and merry they were the funniest in my opinion lol.
The White Council is something I feel I HAVE to see. Another important thing to me is the corruption of Saruman the White. Maybe a llittle bit of back story on Aragorn and Arwen too. But the White Council and driving Sauron from Mirkwood is a must have for the second movie in my opinion.
I have mixed feelings on the corruption of Sauruman the White. On one hand, there is the obvious, "Yes! That would be awsome!". But it is tempered by this thought, how would you show it in film?
I do not see where in the written story a sort of "Ah Ha!" point would be that he turned. The way I read it involved a slow process where by first came desire. Sauruman did not want to become evil, only powerful to stop evil. He began with much reading and researching of Sauron, trying to discover more and more. It was through studying him so closely that desire entered his heart on he began to search for the ring, not to stop Sauron, but to overpower him and take control of MiddleEarth. And then eventually was ensnared by Sauron in the Palantir and finally became just another agent of Sauron (albiet a powerful agent).
In film there would have/likely be a distinct turning point for his character. So I pose the question, where is the turning point in the films?
Actually, I think you have revealed the Turning Point Show. In talking through the sequence of Saruman's corruption, you pointed to the Palantir as the final step. But that would be the crucial turning point, where Sauron persuades Saruman to "Join the Dark Side, So they could rule the Galaxy...ahem...
Middle Earth together and bring Peace to Middle Earth (The peace of the dead of course).

[b:255r47sd]Gandalfs Beard[/b:255r47sd]
Heh, so I did. Someone else aready pointed there before, so I wont take credit though.
I would like to see Modor forces take Osgiliath myself, and maybe the corruption of Minis Ithil.
That would be really cool. The destruction of Osgiliath would be really good in my opinion it would tie into that scene in the extended edition of TTT where Boromir is atop a pile of rubble and give the speach about Osgiliath being the jewel of the kingdom. I'd like to see it before the destruction and see how it was destroyed on film. (I have the whole thing in my head already so I hope I'm disappointed if they do use that <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> )
THat is a cool 8-) idea. I would love to see an untarnished Osgiliath on film.

[b:1dfp2o9g]Gandalfs Beard[/b:1dfp2o9g]
This thread seems to have died a little. But here is my little kick to it. Rereading through I noted alot of talk about seeing the White Council ousting Dol Gudar and the corruption of Saruman. But, help me if I'm wrong, didn't all that take place before and during the Hobbit. I understood matters as Gandalf leaving and driving the Necromancer out while Bilbo and Company were travelling through Mirkwood. This would imply that a properly contructed time line would place all of this in the first movie. Kind of like Jacksons mixing of book 3&4 (Two Towers) to make a more even timeline.

Could this in turn stretch the story of The Hobbit across both films and make all the "other film" material stretch across both as well?
-if so, would the enrich or ruin The Hobbit?

If my assesment of the timeline is right (I accept I may have been wrong), would they simply shift the timing to suit their needs?

I feel that the most important thing to show in the second movie (assuming the second still links Hobbit to LotR) is Sauron and/or his forces. Things are getting worse, much worse. The darkness is returning. I want to see the ominous of the world around the Shire.

But that is just my two cents.
That's a good way to look at Show. I will have to do some research about that timeline. Now assuming you are right I'm pretty sure they would change the timeline to suit thier needs. Meaning of course just the contents of the Hobbit book in the 1st movie and everything else in the second. That is usually how these things work. I think I personally would rather see it all mixed together but everyone is different i suppose. But I'm also still holding out for the destruction of Osgiliath in the 2nd movie. I think that would be amazing to see what it was like before Sauron's forces and then watch how they destroy it. But yet again that might just be me <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
I'm with you on Osgiliath. I think Sauron's rise to power could be shown very well with his early moves against Gondor. The Nazgul taking Minis Ithil and sacking Osgiliath.
Well, it need not necessarily imply a timeline change. Rather, a sizable portion of the first part of film 2 would be given over to revealing what Gandalf and the White Council had been doing, the gradual turning of Saruman etc., and eventually leading up to meeting Bilbo and the Gang in time for the battle of the 5 armies. This would then be followed by a sequence showing the gathering of Dark Forces in Mordor, the re-opening of the Mines of Moria and a glmpse of the battle there, the search for Gollum and his capture by Sauron's forces, the completion of Saruman's turn to evil, possibly the fall of Osgiliath, etc. etc....leading to a final cheerful scene of Bilbo beginning his book and telling his tale to Happy Hobbit children--segueing right into the beginning of LOTR.

[b:1zx2oh15]Gandalf's Beard[/b:1zx2oh15]
I really like that idea GB.
Thankfully, with things how they're going with the Film Company, they will only be able afford one movie. (One, in fact, might be one too many!)
NOW you're starting to sound like a Virus. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />

You're experiment is working. :mrgreen:

Do I? <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' /> (Am I speaking fluent Viral yet? It's impossible to tell from this end!)
I'm starting to get a fever, so you're bang on target. :lol:

Good... good... I think... I can see your gall bladder... no, that wasn't my plan --- unless you only exist on this Forum --- and nowhere else --- which means it's a virtual gall bladder ---- oh gawd, I think I'm encountering concepts not even my super brilliant brain can grasp... :o (((I wonder if virtual beards even have virtual gall bladders?!?! :? Oh silly me - it's his virtual kidney!! Anyone could have made that mistake! :ugeek: )))
For someone who talks so much about respectability, I think Odo has a lot to answer for about the amount of spam here. Not that I'm complaining, mind you. I just don't pretend to be respectable <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
I hadnt heard it was going to be one movie, is this true ?
Hope not, would love to watch 2 Hobbit films.
At the risk of sounding like a (genuine) Old Fogey, if that's not actually you Chris, I think your last posted picture is a bit in bad taste.
Sorry Odo i shall remove it, :oops: :oops:
[quote="chris63":2sr0sxw8]I hadnt heard it was going to be one movie, is this true ?
Hope not, would love to watch 2 Hobbit films.[/quote:2sr0sxw8]

I haven't heard that rumor in months, if not years. Where'd it come from most recently? :?
Just a thought, Chris --- I just felt for that guy. I guess he's all over the internet and there are a lot of folk who think his plight is hilarious. Sorry, but not me. I feel like I've joined the Mind Police --- yeeeek!
[quote="Eldorion":36vtdcht][quote="chris63":36vtdcht]I hadnt heard it was going to be one movie, is this true ?
Hope not, would love to watch 2 Hobbit films.[/quote:36vtdcht]

I haven't heard that rumor in months, if not years. Where'd it come from most recently? :?[/quote:36vtdcht]


[quote="Odo Banks":36vtdcht]Thankfully, with things how they're going with the Film Company, they will only be able afford one movie. (One, in fact, might be one too many!)[/quote:36vtdcht]

I think <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
By the way, I'm not quite up to date here: Are the two movies still going to be 1: The Hobbit, and 2: Bridging the gap between The Hobbit and LotR? Or will both films be about the Hobbit only?
Quite frankly, I don't even know. Everything is so messed up, I'd be surprised if they get to the second movie! Nonetheless, I hope they do SOMETHING soon...
[quote="Ringdrotten":26gqqcx8]By the way, I'm not quite up to date here: Are the two movies still going to be 1: The Hobbit, and 2: Bridging the gap between The Hobbit and LotR? Or will both films be about the Hobbit only?[/quote:26gqqcx8]

GDT (who, despite later stepping down, was heavily involved with writing the script) announced quite some time ago that the two movies would both cover the story of The Hobbit plus whatever other simultaneous stories they added (the only known one is Dol Guldur/The White Council). The old Hobbit + Bridge idea appears to have been abandoned. There were rumours of 2 Hobbits + Bridge but both PJ and GDT said they weren't interested in directing a third [i:26gqqcx8]Hobbit[/i:26gqqcx8] film.
Hmm, interesting. I'd personally like to see how they will visualize the Necromancer, I remember how scary I thought he might look when I read the book as a kid <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />

Though, won't that present a problem since Christopher Lee said he wouldn't return to his role as Saruman? They could cast a new Saruman of course, but that would be like casting a new Gandalf, they've both done terrific jobs with their respective roles, and casting new ones would just be weird (in my opinion).

Though, knowing Jackson's approach to the books, he might just as well leave Saruman out of the whole thing. I'm not actually sure what I would prefer, new Saruman or no Saruman... I guess Saruman has to be there nonetheless, so new Saruman would probably be the better of the two.
[quote="Ringdrotten":5o1x01vu]Hmm, interesting. I'd personally like to see how they will visualize the Necromancer, I remember how scary I thought he might look when I read the book as a kid <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' /> [/quote:5o1x01vu]

Personally, I hope that - if they absolute [i:5o1x01vu]have[/i:5o1x01vu] to include that plotline - they would leave the Necromancer in the background since they established Sauron as a disembodied Eye in LOTR. If they show him differently they create inconsistency (a pet peeve of mine), but if they show him as already an Eye that makes the question of how he got to Mordor even more ridiculous than it already is.

Perhaps more importantly, what's left offscreen is often scarier than what can be seen since it leaves more to the imagination, as you point out. <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />

[quote:5o1x01vu]Though, won't that present a problem since Christopher Lee said he wouldn't return to his role as Saruman?[/quote:5o1x01vu]

Lee said he'd be willing to shoot his scenes in London but didn't want to travel to New Zealand again at his age. Since he's only getting older as MGM drags on I don't know if he's changed his mind again.

Lee said he'd be willing to shoot his scenes in London but didn't want to travel to New Zealand again at his age. Since he's only getting older as MGM drags on I don't know if he's changed his mind again.[/quote:3in7zmfh]

Now, that's good news! Hopefully he hasn't changed his mind and with some bluescreen magic, things will work out <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />
I really don't see why they couldn't show the Necromancer Eldo. If the Witch King could essentially turn out to be a suit of Armour inhabited by a Shade, then I don't see an issue with presenting the Necromancer/Sauron in the same manner.

[i:2y62k57q]Oh gawd, I heard a horrid rumour
About the Dreaded Necromancer,
They'll take away his evil walk,
And make him be a prancer!

Unbelieveable!? My naive friends,
Believe it because it's true!
It came to me in contemplation,
While transfixed upon the loo.

Things were coming out of me,
But visions were going in ---
Tolkien staggered mortified,
At the things PJ was showing him.

"What's the Council doing here?
Oh Peter, why must you torment me?"
And if you have to have him, lad,
Why the prance? -- Why taunt me?"

So you see, it's all true,
For I dreamed it on the dunny,
It's where I get my best visions ---
And that's not the least bit funny! :x [/i:2y62k57q]

Betty White: "Another One on Behalf of Wisey who hasn't got off yet."

Wise Odo :? Actually he might be --- ??? Queer business... A case of Forum Fatigue setting in? :shock:
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