Bumping myself with the most controversial question among WoTer. I'm assuming, again, no one who hasn't read through book seven is here.

Is Moiraine coming back, and if so, how? I agree with most theories I've seen on "yes." Mat will fix the Ael/Eel wagon and haul her out, possibly accompanied by Thom (after all, Merlin has to tie into the "imprisoned in the tower" thing someway, right?)

I'm also thinking two more books, three tops, 'cos of the whole significance of twelve and thirteen (thirteen Forsaken, thirteen women in a circle a man can't fight, which is max without a man in the link, and thirteen Myrddral/Black Ajah to turn a channeler.)

Update: was just over at wotmania where the press release on "Twelve Questions" for KoD was reposted from Dragonmount. It's been confirmed that there's two books to go, counting KoD. It' been a fun ride, even if World of was nothing like the Silmarillion, while it did answer some questons. I'm now headed back there to see what that "Balefire shield" thread is about, though I assuming it's something like a shield made of cuendillar (which Egwene can make, though that's a problem atm, but I can't go into it now, since we're only going through ACoS.)

That's always been my bet, if for no other reason than he needs something to do besides lurk, but it ranks right up there with the "is Moiraine really dead?" controversy over at wotmania. The consensus there seems to be it wasn't Demandred, and I was just in a thread a little while ago discussing the various reasons why it could've been Slayer or someone else who wasn't a channeler at all (which I personally think is ridiculous since any normal attack against even a weakened Forsaken would be worse than useless.) On the other hand, this is the place with "Moiraine isn't coming back and Mins vision, Moiraines comment on the man she'd marrry, etc. don't prove anything." Despite the fact that Jordan clearly intends Thom and Moiraine to get together (and a Merlin/Morgan La Fey hook up still seems weird to me, but look who Guineviere gets.) Spelling of Aelfinn is correct btw.

The funny thing is, no one but the guy (or gal) responsible knows he's dead. Typical Jordan. No one but the Forsaken know four of them (and I can't remember when we find out whom each of them actually is, so I'm leaving it there) are back. They need to use balefire on all of 'em, but of course they don't know that. Yeah, I think it's Demandred, but that's just my gut; there's no evidence of any kind one way or the other, apart from the fact that a) the absence of a body, b) the absence of Asmodeans ubiquitous harp imply a channeler, probably using balefire (poof, you're dead.)

One thing I haven't seen discussed is the difficulty of anyone who can't Travel getting in and out of a Caemlyn, let alone the Palace, occupied by Aiel. I think folks are having a problem along the lines of "if it was Demandred Rand would've sensed him," but first, there were some powerful flows being hurled all over the place, so he could've missed it or mistaken it for residue, and second, Rand might not have been close enough to feel a weak flow. A Mask of Mirrors would be able to get someone in and out, and a relatively weak weak weave might've been used for the deed itself. Fact is, we don't know he's dead. He could've been hauled off to see the Dark One and he's not done being tortured yet (although if someone Traveled from the spot I'd think Rand would notice, but he might've chalked it up to residue.)

We don't really know much of anything about Demandred except he was "almost" Lews Therin all the way across. We DO know that very few people knew Asmodean had turned; it almost has to be one of the Forsaken to have heard it from Lanfear. In fact, now I think of it, whoever did the deed, the idea was a Forsakens, since no one else would recognize "Jasin Nateal" as anything more than a gleeman with delusions of grandeur. I can't remember if any of the others besides Lanfear knew he'd gone over at that point; it's hard to keep track of who knew what and when. Given that a Forsaken has to be involved, and given how few there were at the time (I count five) that narrows it down considerably. Not Moghedien or Sammael, 'cos they aren't that overt in their actions, and Sammael was considering a truce offer at the time. That leaves Semirhage, Mesaana, or Demandred. Semirhage is a bit far off, and Mesaana is rather busy with her own plans, I think. I wouldn't be surprised if Demandred has been watching Rand for some time, waiting for his moment, and he certainly has an advantage in education with the Power he would want to maintain.

Sigh. Tolkien was always very good about making things definite where he could, but Jordan seems to cultivate uncertainty to build suspense. Just when you've got everything figured out he throws in a new wrinkle that leaves you completely off base and back to square one (like when I was ticking off Forsaken as they went, then four of 'em came back.) I've GOT to reread the books, especially the last few, before KoD comes out or I'll be hopelessly lost. The half baked theories I've seen don't really help, as they're frequently ruled out by stuff we should all know (I saw one about Elayne "repairing" the ter'angreal in Tanchico that's the key to the female Choedan Kal, and that seems absurd.) Of course, having someone with an eye for detail to discuss it with helps; if there's anything I've missed in the above I don't doubt I'll know what it is soon.

Depends on how strong the flow was, and it would have to be pretty strong to erase everything Asmodean taught Rand. Like Ishamael with Callandor strong. Hmm, that's interesting, I started to say there was no reason to use a weak flow, but there was: Rand. Granted it takes some strength to weave balefire, but whatever the minimum requirement is enough to take out a human, since the whole person goes, and recall during the War of the Power there was actually a balefire truce when both sides realized the ramifications. The Forsaken will certainly use balefire, but not casually, and not with excessive force (if balefire isn't automatically excessive force, which Moiraine would certainly argue, despite having used it herself.)

I do OK till we get to ACoS, but the last few are pretty hazy. Not a lot of action; the plots are interminably drawn out, but, again, I heard rumors of a breakdown by Jordan after LoC, and the wait between it and ACoS was the longest by far, I'm pretty sure. It seemed, to me at least, like a different series after that, and I fear Jordan might be padding to get to twelve. Now he'll have to rush everything in at once (or twice.) Upshot is, there's not a whole lot I found memorable in the last three, though the last two do end with a bang. I just don't know why it took so long to get there. Of course, I'm a little upset about having to go through Mat withdrawal for so long. It also doesn't help that, naturally, I've read the earlier books more.

Yeah, I hate that. Nobody stays dead unless they're balefired. It would be another argument for the return of Moiraine, except she's not Black Ajah (at least I highly doubt it, but you can never be too sure of anything in WoT.) I'd forgotten about the "almost like the Spider" comment until you mentioned it, good point.

And I wanted to punch Liandrin (and I'm a good southern boy,) and thoroughly enjoyed a certain event in Tanchico about which I'll say no more 'cos I'm not 100% sure it's happened yet. 99% though, 'cos seems like it was Tanchico and the girls (except Egwene and Min) are in Ebou Dar now. I'm "saving all my hate for" Sevanna now. And one of the Black Ajah who shall remain nameles, but I think she had her first chat with Mesaana already, too. "Carefully, carefully with the plates."

I'm assuming you meant Perrin (since Natael is Asmodean, but you know that,) and yeah, that makes sense, too However, Slayer/Luc/Isam did frequently disappear for extended stretches, and could travel Tel'aran'rhiod (had to confirm with FoH, but I think we both got it right; yea!) in the flesh, so he could use it to Travel, theoretically. And he certainly knows his way around Caemlyn and the Palace, right?

The only question remaining is could he have recognized Asmodean, and we can't really rule it out. We don't know exactly when the Forsaken were freed, when Isam/Luc went over to the Dark One (though I'm guessing around the time Rand was born,) or how many trips he's made to Shayol Ghul or talks with Forsaken he's had since then. I still agree with you that it's (probably) Demandred, but we can't rule out ANYTHING. The plot Robert Jordan writes is not the plot you think you read. The wotmania folks seem to think it just CAN'T be Demandred, and they hang on Jordans every interview, but I've heard nothing to preclude it and, well, he's one of the Forsaken; surely he's gonna DO something at some point.

wotmania does quote a Jordan interview where he says Taim isn't Demandred, which puts me back to square one on that one since I was sure he was. I mean, how has he been channelling this long and not gone mad or started rotting? I guess the law of averages says someone should sooner or later, but NOTHING? And to be so strong, too; I'm thinking Dreadlord apprentice now.

How I miss the nice simple Noldorin family tree. Sure Gil-Galad had two fathers, but Rand has two fathers, two mothers, and three wives, and we've only met one of his parents, and that briefly.

Gotcha, had forgotten about that little competition, which gives further credence to your "Slayer is the Dark Ones assassin" view.

That's the one, Elaidas White Keeper of the Chronicles. Not that Elaidas place as Amyrlin is precarious or anything. Her days are numbered, and I still think... well, I can't tell you what I think; hurry up and read TPoD thru CoT. At least I think that's the order; they aren't conveniently printed inside like most series, so maybe WH comes first.

Yeah, if we didn't have the Council of Elrond and the Silmarillin under our belts we'd be screwed.

Right, and I think they WERE captured, but used more significantly, perhaps because of Isams prominence among the Malkieri, the Thorn In the Dark Ones Side. I was thinking in terms of what he's been doing between then and his arrival in the Two Rivers (which wasn't by chance; this is Jordan, furthering your theory.) Unless he can channel (which seems unlikely, but we can't rule it out entierely) he probably has a healthy respect for the Forsaken at the very least. Most of their subordinates don't distinguish much between orders from the Dark One and orders from the Forsaken, whomthey assume are acting at his direction. In fact, now I think of it, what Slayer was doing in this interval is an excellent question.

I was thinking more of the Green Mans mythological significance (ho ho ho,) but maybe Fangorn is part of that. If I had to guess, I'd say it's directly tied to the weakening/destruction of the Seals, though I think you have the timing pretty close, since we first see Lanfear in TGH.

Makes since, but I suspect Slayer hops when the Forsaken say frog. After all, there's all kinds of things they can do to make him miserable without impairing his usefulness, but maybe his position with the Dark One restrains them some what (I'm thinking in terms of "touch not mine annointed," but you know how the Dark One likes competition.)

It's surely possible, but remember, he's a new deal; the other Forsaken don't recognize him as anything more than a Myrddraal, and are quite contemptuous of him. Until they try to channel at him. Asmodean, of course, recognized his killer (assuming he was killed and not just taken away for punishment; Traveling would remove all trace as well.) It depends on a) when Shaidar Haran was created, and b) when's the last time Asmodean went to Shayol Ghul

I'm not sure where the cites are, but I seem to remember balefire being discussed as being dependent on the strength of the One Power used to make it, thus in the AoL the Forsaken and Aes Sedai using it against each other would burn threads out weeks or months into the past, and on such a scale that it threatened the very fabric of the Pattern. I think it was a discussion between Moiraine and Rand, and thus Rand is very careful how he does it most of the time. In the case of Rahvin, he likely had the "you killed my friend and my girlfriend) thing in the back of his mind and acted accordingly. When he balefired the Darkhounds in TSR he was very careful about the strength he used, and thus they were only removed a few minutes back in time, so Mat still got a drop of drool on his arm (which still would've killed him if not immediately healed.) How far back the thread is burned out of the Pattern is directly proportional to the strength of the One Power used to create the balefire.

I think this may be in World of... (no SIlmarillion, and apparently contains errors and discrepancies since it wasn't prepared by Jordan himself) but supposedly Myrddraal are actually the offspring of Trollocs and a genetic throwback to their human heritage. Thus, while Myrddraal are smarter, quicker, more gifted, and likely stronger than Trollocs they are entirely dependent on them to increase their numbers (though there's no indication Myrddraal are mules, so...)

No Nazg’l are no mystery at all, yet I still found in a discussion of "How do Myrddraal see?" (same way Frodo saw the Nazg’l, IMHO) the statement that "the Nazg’l were blind and relied on their mounts to see." Well. I'm not sure how that blind Witch King broke Eowyns arm with his steed head lying on the ground, but....

Of course, in an ongoing discussion of whether Laman Damodred was a Blademaster (he had a heron mark sword, which seems to clear up the matter to me) I encountered the statement that later writers have produced longer works (true, FoH is longer than any entry in the Trilogy, but that doesn't make them short books.) I found the Trilogy quite tomey when I first read it, and probably couldn't have made it through Jordans books otherwise. My response will include the words "consistently excellent" and "Oxofrd English Proffessor (a title reserved for department heads at Oxford.)" If I used WoT (or anything else with the possible exception of Narnia) for an AP essay I don't like to think about the results. And when we read Sir Gawain in HS, guess whose translation we used?

He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!

-Gitara Moroso
Yeah, I really need to get a new copy of the Trilogy so I can put down the Silmarillion long enough to read it, sigh. I'm afraid to open any of my Trilogy now for fear I'll lose a precious page. Myrddraal are just... weird.

Yeah, he puts the Shadowspawn in their place, doesn't he? And a free agent; that could screw everything up for the Dark One, but of course the Creator neatly factored it in. Someone just put the last of a their four part theory on Fain very much along the lines you suggest, with a Fain vs. Shaidar Haran showdown.

Your point is well taken on the Forsakens possibly complete ignorance of Slayer. He definitely keeps to himself, so unless the Dark One specifically required some kind of interaction it's likely, even probable, they've never actually met. Which makes things reeeeally interesting since Slayer likes to hang out in Tel'aran'rhiod (in the flesh, no less) and the Forsaken have been known to schedule pow-wows there (probably to conceal things from each other) Traipsing around in the hunters backyard when you don't even know he exists is less than wise. Guess it all depends on how strong they are and who wins initiative. Moghedien wasn't there in the flesh for the Rahvin deal, but managed to hurt him pretty bad; if he'd been aware of them in time though, he likely would've ripped her AND Nynaeve apart, adam or no adam.

Oooo, you named the Dark One -- twice; RUNNNNN! Missed that about the indices, but I generally only use them for spellings and such.

That last is a complicated subject (gee, that's a new one from Jordan, eh?) I see it as always being DO vs. Creator, but at some level it almost has to be (don't think you were really speculating about this, but CMA.) At the same time though, it's generally fought out at least partly through surrogates, as you noted. There's exceptions; the sneak attack by the Hundred Companions and resultant taint on saidin was definitely a vs. DO scenario, but the War of the Power itself was vs. channelers, just like the Trolloc Wars. That whole "if Rand reseals the Bore it'll roll around to the AoL again and Lanfear and Ishamael will Bore through that" still plays with my head.

With that in mind, it seems like a conjunction thing; during the AoL there must have been SOME kind of interface, at least a potential one, so they could sense the DO out there to tap into in the first place. One might argue that's an example of the DO touching the Pattern, but the rest of the time it's certainly off limits or there'd be nothing left. My conclusion is even in cases where the conflict is between the DO directly and the Creators champion (and a conflict of the type described by the Prophecies of the Dragon is clearly unprecedented; last time the DO never got out, but the implication is this time he gets out completely and Rand has to shove him back in, although maybe he'll just possess Ishamael or something) he requires a surrogate or a servant to act on his behalf to either release him or give him the opportunity to bust out himself.

Perhaps that IS the conflict of surrogates; the DOs champion tries to free him while the Creators tries to stop him, with everyone knowing that once he's out he's out for good. How that affects the seeming requirement of the Karaethon Cycle that the DO be released this time I really can't say. And we have to bear in mind this isn't just a "minor" Age shift like the Trolloc Wars; this one's big, prophecied for three Ages since the AoL. By the time the next Age ends everyone may "know" that "the Dark One was imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation."

OK, something less compicated: favorite character(s,) least favorite character(s) (this seems to be an obligatory discussion for WoT fans.)

Myself I like Mat 'cos I relate to him; irreverent, obstinate, and mouthy. The tactician element helps; military tactics and strategy have always fascinated me (one last time, even Gothmog can't turn a formation of pikemen 180’ in an instant Mr. Jackson; if the cavalry flank them, it's all over but the screaming.) And Elayne; gotta like a leggy blonde, as always. And of course our resident Aragorn masquerading as Lancelot, the crowned whose kingdom is gone, Lan. Moiraine (duh.) Least favorite is probably Sevanna, though Galina Casban's a close second. It was Liandrin for a long time, but now that she's been dealt with (or so it would seem) she's been displaced; let the Myrddraal have her. Not that I'm fond of Elaida, but at least her motives are pure.

wotmania was kind enough to furnish this from their random quotes, thus saving me the trouble of figuring out what I did with New Spring:

Yeah, the Last Battle conjures more questions than anwers, and seems full of contrdictory requirements from the narrative if not the prophecies themselves. Rand seems to be required to fight the DO himself, but I agree with you that should be an impossible fight to win, let alone survive, but judging from recent wrinkles I just can't imagine Jordan would allow him to die. It SHOULD be exactly like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth for the same reasons, and the Choedan Kal shouldn't really change that; it's the freakin' DO for crying out loud! Spelling is on, but no tilde (Jordan has generally spared me the need for the ASCII set.)

After the first time I wouldn't let him fool me again, but hey, even Ishamael believed he was the DO before he got finished off (or so we thought.)

Agreed, on so many levels. My impression of the DO is that he's such a malevolent creature of hate they'll be nothing to rule if he gets out (one more reason why a personal confrontation is so perplexing.) I don't think he wants to rule, even tyrannically, just destroy, but maybe I'm taking "break the Wheel of Time" too literally (but can the Pattern exist without the Wheel?) When you cease to be, it doesn't really matter if you were Nae'blis of just some pikemen trampled under a cavalry charge.

Yea, Mat! When Rand gets his army together, we know who's gonna lead 'em to victory with cannon ablazin'.

I can live with Perrin, and certainly see the parallel; he provides that Everyman quality; he just wants to live his life and be left alone, but he's ta'veran, so what ya gonna do? I did get kinda sick of him while I was waiting for the Return Of the Mat, but the girls helped some. Faile (there's a Shove Faie Down a Well support group you can join, too) I can take or leave, but I like her dad.

I find Nynaeve generally amusing; she can be a real female dog, but that just makes me enjoy it more when someone takes her down a peg. She's just the way she is, and set in her ways; reminds me of a friend of mine that thinks she's everyones mother now I think of it. I reread the part in FoH yesterday where Elayne gets her to apologize to Mat when they go looking for the Bowl (was checking spelling, but I gotta apply myself next month) and that was priceless. I think Egwenes about to learn some discretion, but in the mean time you'll likely find her insufferable (there's a support group for her, too, and in fact just about all the women except Moiraine.)

I think Lan's been taken care of; surprised you didn't see that one coming. I don't have New Spring handy and can't recall how much they interacted there, but I wanna say it was a prequel all around (my reaction to New Spring was essentially "Hey, bucky, you write the prequels when you're DONE." Imagine if the Silmarillion had come out after the TT.) Yeah, Thom's pretty cool; if Lan's the Aragorn type then Thom's the Gandalf type. Well, if Gandalf was a randy old goat.

I think Gawyn has bigger fish to fry now, too, and the grudge will be taken care of in time. Egwene will make sure. Byar had kinda disappeared for a bit, but I understand he shows up in the new prologue, and you'll never guess with whom. I think the Whitecloaks are either Crusaders or specifically Knights Templar, but the Questioners are pure Inquisition. I wanna like Elaida, since she's one of the good guys, but she's just such a .... Besides, there's only one way that schism can end, and that doesn't bode well for her.

Lans One Man Crusade Against the Blight was rudely interrupted by tens of thousand of screaming Aiel streaming over the Dragonwall straight for Lamans head. Events even more radical in their effect were occurring in Moiraines life. Beyond that I'll leave you to Jordans beloved R(ead) A(nd) F(ind) O(ut.) New Spring is the title. A prequel fer sure; seems you're part of a very large crowd wanting to know more about What Has Gone Before (yuck, just noticed that, but it's a popular phrase, as a TITLE, no less.) If nothing else it can hold you over until October. Personally, I thought it suffered from the new hallmark of WoT -- it took to long to reach it's destination and never quite reached the one I wanted because the clock ran out on it.

Amazingly, I forgot to mention the character I may despise more than Sevanna: Daved Hanlon (I forget his other moniker.) I can't wait to see Rand slowly torture him to death ('cos Rand isn't hard enough yet, right?)

Bah, Cadsuane & Co are just another faction amongst many who wish to use the Dragon Reborn for their own good and selfish plans (heck, even Egwene is guilty of that - what a surprise).

Anyway, it's pretty obvious nothing of those plans will work out, as it's WOT after all.

I don't think any of Rand's faithful Aes Sedai (Alanna and Co) are Black Ajah, due to one of Min's visions in which she saw them standing on Rand's fists (of course, it could also mean something else ha ha). On another note though, why on earth did Alanna bind Rand ?! Was she that bamboozled by the death of one of the wardens, i wonder.

until now it seems most Black Ajah are in the White (or should we say : Black) Tower, and until now i haven't encountered any Blue Ajah who was Black, but who knows ?

Anyway, it's hard to imagine none of the Aes Sedai of Salidar isn't a member of the Black Ajah, although this raises the questions : have we already encountered any Green or Blue Ajah which was in reality Black ? I don't remember if any of the 13 of the early books, were.

I think Sheriam Bayanar could be Black Ajah, although i doubt it... we are only sure Siuan Sanche, Leane Sharif and Moiraine Damodred aren't black. Maybe Myrelle isn't black as well, as she seemed to be more interesting in keeping Lan alive, constantly looking for some more wardens to bind. If Verin is Black Ajah, then she hides it well, i must say. I think she's just wierd, that's all.

I don't consider Cadsuane to be Black Ajah, but nonetheless she's as much a pain in the arse as a black ajah, and should be disposed of, in the worst kind of way, imo.

What about this : what if Cadsuane is Semirhage in disguise ? Now that would be interesting... although perhaps not quite possible. Still, Aginor in disguise healed Rand (if my suspicions are correct, which are until now, yet unconfirmed as i still have to read past book 7) and Moridin (which i think is resurrected Ish) helped Rand defeating Sammael at Shadar Logoth, so heck why not ?

OK, I now have a question: In the course of a very long phone conversation with an old friend last night he mentioned something about a CoT reference to an Aes Sedai who "just appeared" in the middle of Seanchan, but was known to be Aes Sedai and promptly collared. Again, he said this occured in book ten (so hurry it up, Miruvor) and I haven't started my prepratory reread yet (having fouond Empire of the East at Half Price Books recently and just finished it) so I'm wanting to know if anyone with CoT fresh in their minds noticed something that, if present, I completely missed but would seem to indicate the Return of the Moiraine as my friend suggested (either that or Traveling gone horribly wrong, which I suspect results in non-existence rather than the wrong destination.) I can't believe this post is only three sentences; maybe time for bed.

Yes, I'm picking at you today, but you have to admit you've been beggin for it. I can't be too harsh though as you've revived my thread.


Well, true, but you'd think you'd remember the ones you suspcet of THAT. I don't think Cadsuane is, but I can't tell you why. Just my gut. I wonder about Romanda and Lelaine, who occupy prominent positions both within the Tower as a whole and the Tower In Exile as well. Very convenient levers on the "free" Aes Sedai they would be, though if one is you can bet the other isn't (or maybe we just THINK they hate each others guts.) I think you're right about Tar Valon housing tons, even most, but there's nothing that explicilty says that. However, that's where Mesaana and Alviarin are, so it makes sense.



Well, technically, I was a little blase in my earlier comments; fact is it's hard to completely rule anybody out unless they think something in their POV about going after Black Ajah or something.



Nicola Treehill though I'd bet my life is Black Ajah, or Black Novice, I guess (gotta start somewhere.) Though you have to admit, if Verin isn't it means some Aes Sedai do some very morally questionable things in pursuit of their goals. But then Siuan setting a bunch of Accepted to look for Black Ajah in the first place wasn't the most morally defensible thing to do.



I'm assuming that was done via the Forsaken to whom they both started reporting as the Seals weakened. Unlike Tolkien, Jordan often makes us piece things together on our own; I could be totally off base, though I can't see another way. We also might never know for sure, sigh. It did seem like Liandrin was more knowledgable about the Seanchan than anyone else on her side of the Arytth.



Near as I can figure the body has reincarnated and brought Lews Therin with it, but had a new soul since it was a new baby. The first soul just got pulled back with the body. Maybe they would normally merge or be merged being ta'veren (is Lews Therin the only ta'veren, or is Rand ANOTHER ta'veren?) messed things up somehow. It does seem like a bit of a hole.

Mmmmaybe. Jordan has taught me not to assume anything; it's entirely possible that there were some among the Black Ajah reporting to Mesaans AND one or more other Forsaken. We've seen them play Darkfriend in the Middle before. Typically it's the more prominent/useful people that tend to get caught up in this kind of thing, too. While the area between the Spine and the Arytth is certainly the focus for reasons others have discussed (more to play with, mainly, plus that's where Shayol Ghul is,) some of the Forsaken have spared some attention for the Seanchan and Sharans as well (unless Graendal was lying to... Demandred or Sammael, I can't remember, but I think the former.) It's also possible that at that stage of the game it was part of a cooperative effort by the little mini-alliance that was operating (Lanfear+Sammael+Rahvin+Graendal if I remember right.) Guess we'll all RAFO together; I can see several ways it could have played out, but no way to confirm them, at least not yet.



Agreed on all points. I think the Black Ajahs approach is that, knowing how capricious the Dark One is, they might be able to displace some of the Forsaken either through attrition or betrayal.



There seems to be a growing consensus to that effect. Siuan and the Wise Ones put too much spine into her, I guess, but she'll need it if she's gonna act the part she's assumed.



Have to agree; the only thing that occurs to me is the idea that both of them are such huge personalities they can't be merged, or at least not easily. It's weird; we don't see this kind of phenomenon with the other Heroes I'll have to give this one some more thought.



Well, as I understand it, strength has a direct bearing on how soon and to what extent slowing occurs. I wanna say she's three hundred and something, which is definitely at the high end of the scale, but she's pretty strong, too. She's indirectly referenced in NS and the character who thinks of her wonders then if she's still alive (which means it was at least conceivable.) That's easy to date because a) it's at the end of the Aiel War, and b) it covers Rands birth. Twenty years either way isn't that big a deal in terms of the numbers we're considering, and Cadsuane, IIRC, has a habit of turning up when people think she's long since dead (though an attentive Forsaken COULD use that to their advantage.) It's hard to tell because we don't have the age at death of powerful channelers from the Age of Legends (not even Lews Therin himself) and since then channelers of Cadsuanes strength have been increasingly rare, so there's not much against which to gauge her.



I've thought about that, too. The only real marks against are that Lews Therin doesn't really react to her that way and that in WoT you can almost bet that a character with a name you recognize won't conform to the one of whom it makes you think (Nynaeve hasn't locked Thom away, and would certainly soundly thump anyone that suggested anything between them.) On the other hand, there's frequently at least some relation (Galad's still a p---k; @$@#! avatar!) And there's no gaurantee that Lews Therin would recognize nouveau Ilyena (though between the relationship and the nomnative and physical resemblance you'd think he would, but he IS mad as a hatter, after all.)




Well, you know, it's the end of an Age. Lews Therin was the strongest channeler that ever lived, and Demandred was only a hair less; Lanfear was stronger than most men, even among the Forsaken. Remember all the comments about why there's so many more False Dragons all of a sudden?



The aptly named Gray Men. I'm not sure to which incident you're referring, but I'm assuming the Gray Man in the Tower once they got back. It could be one of the non-Mesaana Forsaken did it and she or someone obedient to her took care of him. Or that Mesaana brought him in and one of the Black Ajah who was working for a competing Forsaken did it.



Indeed, thanks. The thread (and Frodo and Moiraine) lives.

I think it's a product of the fact that, when you think about it, Moiraine has had some rather unique experiences: she's been through both of the known "possible pasts/futures" ter'angreals, and at least and both of the Finn ter'angreals. The resultant combination, IMHO, is the source of her comment. Remember, Aes Sedai (Black Ajah excepted, of course, though I base this not on character assumptions but Black Ajah statements) can't lie, and Moiraine knew the face with whom she expected Nynaeve to end up pretty well, as did Nynaeve. I believe it was in the Stone in TDR, but the fact she "alterered" her bond with Lan after this point (probably, at least) doesn't really change what she must have already known. Moiraine's coming back, which is one reason why I'm anticipating KoD (after all, she's only got two books left in which to do it,) and anyone claiming otherwise has an overinflated sense of self importance (despite the fact there seem to be many WoT fans online at their sites who fall into this category.)

To my knowledge, no, only by implication, though I haven't run across the interviews (they're probably archived somewhere at wotmania, but I haven't seen them yet; I'll ask around.) It's conceivable that we find out Moiraines questions/answers from the Finn themselves, or that Moiraine actually told somebody (although she didn't tell Rand, so who else WOULD she tell? Lan, maybe?) In general, he answers questions like this with RAFO, and when I ran across the Q/A with him and found the question about "will we ever find out what Moiraine asked, and/or what answers she got?" his response was "this one's a big RAFO." Again, I take that as a strong implication she's coming back to, among other things, reveal them. It's even possible she's ALREADY back and taking advantage of the fact that everyone THINKS she's dead.

Moiraine's definitely the Gandalf archetype, or maybe Moiraine and Thom as a group (only logical since Gandalf could be accused of being a Merlin archetype) so I don't think Jordan could resist it. Besides which, he'll have millions of fans howling for his blood if she doesn't return.

I'm actually (slightly) sympathetic to Elaida; she's well meaning even if she is a collosal #$@&! I think I'd feel bad if something really awful happened to her. What she needs is someone like Galad to come along and sweep her off her feet, but the consensus is that he's reserved for Berelain (based on Mins viewing, which seems reasonable.)

The only thing I've gotten from the wotmaniacs on Lews Therin/Rand is that they're nothing like Mats memories because Jordan has evidently said that Mats memories were collected by the Finn from folks that came to see them (apparently at least part of the "sensations" they mine is memories) and that I should read their multi-volume, mutli-page FAQ. In other words, a flaw in my analogy was diagnosed, but no attempt has been made to actually answer the question.

I think Min had that viewing when Rand took Cairhien, though I could be wrong. I can't remember exactly where it occurred, but I do remember a phrase indicating a Whitecloak; if I tipped something, I'm very sorry, but I remember it as being pre ACoS.

In the little set to I brought about for myself, I was informed that it was indeed likely movers and shakers that went through the doorways (look who's been recently) and that we could expect these to be adventurous and capable men of the type who would have experiences like those Mat remembers. Now that I think of it, there is a problem with that, but it's late and I can't remember when Mat had the recollection, so I'll let it go (at least until I click by wotmania tab.)

Bonhwin is, I think, whom you have in mind, a comparison Eladia seems to encourage despite the fact she's the reason there hasn't been a Red Amyrlin since Hawkwing.

Someone has recently begun a thread on whether Lews Therin will be "ripped from the Wheel" ala Birgitte and separated from Rand in that way, an idea I kind of like, but that still doesn't explain the presence of two souls in a single body. I'm stumped.

Right, Min didn't go into the Waste, and consequently wasn't there for the taking of Cairhien, she was with Siuan and Leanne, my bad. Of course, that means I'm not really sure when it happened.

Why do I feel that everyone online is discussing the Wheel of Time series?

No, I meant, like people on other sites too. It seems that everyone who reads fantasy reads Robert Jordan too...

I have returned. Mothers, lock up your daughters. ;-p I'll try really hard to avoid spoilers other than to say KoD is the best book in the series since ACoS (though admittedly TPoD didn't set the bar particularly high; "Worst WoT book ever!" ) First, to virumor, who graciously (and repeatedly) invited me back to our beloved PT, even to the point of joining wotmania! so he could NB me. Thanks, and sorry it took so long. It's actually the CMBs fault more than the series itself, as I can get away with no holds barred discussions of stuff there I can't even touch at political sites. Anyway...:



That's pretty close to the understanding I have; the only quibble I have is that the True Source is antecedent to life: it drives them and is not dependent on their use of it.



I think he's trying to wipe out all of existence as an act of pure malevolent hate, against the Creator, not life, the latter of which is merely an incidental means of getting back at the Creator. It is independent of the ability to channel; remember, among the many Tolkien influences is that Randland is supposed to be OUR world in a different time and/or reality. To provide verisimilitude Jordan has been forced to address the question of real world channeling being absent, and is on record as saying there's at least one Age in which the ability to channel is completely absent, then rediscovered in another (and no, he hasn't, to my knowledge, elaborated on why it was lost or why it was regained. )



Cute, but no, it's supposed to simpler than that, and alluded to by grousings of several Aes Sedai, most notably Sheiram Byanar (during an Accepted Testing IIRC. ) It's genetic. More importantly, it's a recessive genetic trait (possibly involving MULTIPLE recessive genes) and thus very rare. The Red Ajah spending 3000 years hunting down every man that can channel and gentling them has only exacerbated the problem, since these unfortunates inevitably die soon after. The net result is an already rare ability is becoming increasingly so, and the strength of those who CAN channel is far less than in the Age of Legends. Perhaps that's how Jordan accounts for the loss of channeling.

Sorry, I missed this on the first pass. There's rising concern that the Dragon is becoming too hard, but it seems there's little anyone, including Cadsuane, can do about it. Some Aes Sedai (notably Cadsuane) are concerned it may have reached the point a victory for the Dragon will be little better than the alternative. We get a glimpse into just how hard he HAS become at the end of CoT and again two thirds of the way through KoD, both through the eyes of someone who watched him grow up. I'm hoping his love interest will ameliorate that, and soon, but the tortured Christ figure is one of the most appealing things about the Dragon Reborn: he knows he's getting hard, doesn't want to, but feels he must because the alternative is unthinkable. Anyway....

"And NOW to bed, and NOW to bed. " (So nice to be around people who will get that again. ;-))

Edit: Titles are cool. ;-)

I'm embarrassed to say I almost forgot this was here, so busy with the other threads.



Meh. What for; he's already got one of every flavor. More would be superfluous.



Odd, that's the way I remembered until the third reread of those. But 4,5 & 6 tend to run together a bit, I think. I believe you have TSR in mind, and it is my second choice. It seems to be close among most people as to which one is better. Very close. LoC is pretty darn good, too; the book where Jordan became the first author I've read since Robert Adams who knows what a hedgehog is, but then, look where he went to school. I'm just hoping Grondy doesn't see that bit above about the Aiel until he's read TSR, unless he already has. ;-) That one came out of left field for me.



Thanks, and noted. I was actually a little surprised when I got back and saw that one thread (what the heck happened while I was gone?) until I got to the bottom and saw your comment about it being from before the Ban of the Valar, so to speak. It would probably be best if I confined my debate on Hillarys chance at the nomination to the CMB though (if only because it's fun to make wads sputter; hey, if you're going to lecture me on my countrys politcis from the other side of the Pacific you deserve to sputter.) Good to see Melian is tied for second in the "Wisest" poll, but I feel bad for poor ol' Finarfin. The only Noldorin Lord who stayed in Valinor, and he gets ONE (1) vote. I feel bad voting for Melian 'cos I thought she wouldn't do well (it HAS to be a Maiar; they were in the Ainulindale for Petes sake!)

Update on two things we discussed earlier about which I didn't have enough onine data:

Jordan's evidently clearly said the killer of You Know Who is "intuitively obvious" and that by the end of TFoH (which literally ends with the event) we have enough data to figure it out. That takes five people off the list right there, if you think about it. That doesn't mean we're wrong, but it's hard to make a case for it being "intuitively obvious" (a phrase that strikes me a bit like "artificially natural" but never mind) unless we go with my "WTF else is he doing?" theory.

Different intensities of balefire: I knew there were varying degrees of strength, but there's more: the target at the end of TDR inverts, like a photographic plate, then breaks into motes and drifts away. The target at the end of TFoH, where the weave is powered by 1)the greatest channeler of either gender that ever lived, 2)an angreal and 3)white hot despairing rage at a mountain of dead, that target is just... gone. Instantly. I've made an argument for something along the lines of Aginor and Balthamel in the first case (no takers) but the latter is gone; even the DO concedes that in LoC. I can't recall where, but Moiraine says she can only handle a few seconds; the Dragon Reborn can do a lot more damage.

Edit Mark II: Something I meant to mention but forgot: Jordan has pretty much killed Taimandred, which really hacks me off, because I thought he was going to make something simple. He's on record as saying we haven't seen the alter ego, so Taimendred is out of the question. Your guess is as good as mine, prob'ly better.

Also, a bit of bad news: I just glanced over the part where you said you don't like Perrin. You may not like the next few books much. Sorry. Funny thing is, Jordan has been accused of modeling Perrin on a certain stout bearded author who was always bigger than his age and took pains not to hurt the other boys. To this he responds "there's some of me in all three of them." Sure, Bob, pull the other one.... :-p

Yeah, the more I think about the more I'm torn as to whether it was wiser of Finarfin to stay, and be a footnote in the Silmarillion, but a breathing footnote, or of Finrod to seek glory and death in Middle-earth. One thing seems certain: if Finrod doesn't go Beren never escapes from Sauron, and the Silmarillion has a much grimmer ending. And who knows who would have found the fathers of the Atani?



Indeed. It would all be a lot simpler if Taimandred balefired Asmo and caught Moiraine with collateral damage, but that option's not on the table. Moiraine was gone when Asmo died though, as she passed through the doorway with Lanfear in "Choices" after stating the news of Morgases death led to the docks; the docks in turn led to Caemlyn and Rahvin, and then to the death of Asmo. "Moiraine did it" is popular with the folks that think Moiraine came back (presumably not via the destroyed doorframe ter'angreal) and just hasn't made an appearance, but I don't think she'd hide out like that. Plus she seems to give tacit acceptance, if not outright approval, to Rands decision to take the only tutor who presented himself, so I have trouble with it on that basis.



Well, it does seem your opinion is shared by many, including at least one character we might expect to feel differently, eh? I'm really not sure how that's going to end, and frankly I don't much care for it either. Perrin takes whipped to a new level, as Faile does with jealousy (get a grip, woman.) Of course, I have other reasons to be upset with the two of them as you will see. As I said a few hours ago, I'm sure Harriet is very flattered by all the Faile worship Jordan puts in Perrin, but the rest of us are starting to tire. But I'll let that go at least until after you read TPoD (there's a thread on TPoD, and a defender lists the various events, so I'm forced to correct myself: TWO things happen in TPoD. In almost 700 pages. Hardback. )

Is it just me, or did this turn into our own little PM thread when I wasn't looking? ;-p

No, I check in now and then, but I don't know enough to enter the conversation.

And I mustn't put much thought into your posts, so as not to ruin the intervening hundred books, having just started Dragon Reborn. Perin couldn't save Leah the Tinker from her death and Rand has just run off, maybe to try his luck at grabbing the sword on the cover/dust jacket of the book. Sounds like the inverse of the 'Sword in the Stone' to me:

"Step right up folks, only two-bits a chance to win the sword. Pull it free and the sword is yours. You, kid, how many times must I tell you keep away from that sword; this game of chance is fer skilled adults only. Now keep away or I'll box yer ears."

You would try the 'Maiden's kiss' or whatever it's called with a Far Dareis Mai then? It sounded quite interesting.

Actually, while we're at it : why didn't that Far Dareis Mai who turned out to be a thrall of Samael, kill Mat while they were spending some quality time together, instead of waiting til they were in Cairhien?