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Glory yes, but that is far apart from love. One doesn't just recover instantly like that at the loss of one so loved and revered, at least that is not true in my life.
But you are right Vir, it was something that would live forever in song.
I often ponder over Cirdan the Shipwright. What a mysterious Elf he seems to me. Who were his family, did he have no wife and children? How came he by the glorious gift of making ships the likes of which were not known again after the final departure into the West?
And he seemed to stay in one spot, was he ever lonely , did he long to go and have adventures like most of the other Elves?
He had one of the rings, now that certainly says something about him; and he had some sort of foresight, or special knowledge , for he gave his ring to Olorin-Gandalf, and he, unlike anyone else, said that he was giving it to the greater of the wizards instead of Saruman. Did he also already know of the treachery of the head of the council?
Well I have said all that to ponder on his hear, what were his feelings. Did he feel grief as time went on and he saw his people, his kin diminish, slowly begin to fade? How came he to have signs of aging unlike all the others, was he so much older, or was he too of the same spirit beings as Gandalf and the other four who it always says about them that they clothed themselves in flesh and because of it could experience fatigue and confusion and fear, all the feelings of the elves and humans. It says they aged slowly, but age they did.
If he was one then surely he had a broken heart to see the destruction of first Melchor and then Sauron and Saruman upon the creation of Illuvatar, that which once was so pristine and glorious?
Can someone help me on this, seriously help me, because I feel the answers might open up new doors of understanding for me and I would greatly appreciate any help
Nothing is known for certain. He supposedly awoke at Cuivi’nen, meaning he should've awoken next to his spouse according to a part of HOME that speaks about this 144 Firstborn who awoke at Cuivi’nen.

It is mentioned in ROTK he had a beard, but this might've been fake. Maybe all those thousands of dreary years in Mithlond made his mind crack and he thought in the end he was a Dwarf born in the body of an Elf.
Can someone help me on this, seriously help me, because I feel the answers might open up new doors of understanding for me and I would greatly appreciate any help

Leelee, have you read through Cirdan the Shipwright, which has the most definitive info on Cirdan that I've read, though some of it might be considered apocryphal.
No Grondy I have not, only what I read of course in the actual tale and appendices. Where might I find this, I don't know it at all.
And thankyou, it has been troubling me for some reason, and that usually means I need to look into it so that I might move on to the next part of my quest to learn.
And he seemed to stay in one spot, was he ever lonely , did he long to go and have adventures like most of the other Elves?

What you are saying here about Cirdan can be said for many elves.
What did Ingw’ outside T’n and the Taniquetil ? Did Thingol ever go outside Doriath ? And did the Teleri sail their ship away from the Bay of Fa’ry ?

Actually it seems tobe the deep nature of Vanyar and Teleri to be bounded to a place. They stay "here" and that's all. Nothing wrong with that - probably a clue to a boundless serenity.

Noldoli are different.

Tolkien often emphasized on their desire to learn to discover. And that sets them apart from the other elves and makes them more human. For good and bad.

They are the elves "on the loose". I also see Noldoli as the "missing link" between Elves and Men.
Oh thankyou for that insight. I think you are right, but still I would just love to know what he thought. Since they were not cookie cutters of one another, perhaps he felt certain things some others did not. It is the mystery and the not knowing I suppose.
That is fascinating information. Again thankyou.
That is very intriguing Vir about his should have had a wife theory. I wonder if he did.
That is even more mysterious. And the fake beard thing, I love it.
He just seems such a wondrous elf. To have that great knowledge , to produce ships like he did, too possess the red ring, why did HE have it in the first place. When you think of who the other two were that had it, it is marvellous don't you think?

Oh and by the way Vir, in my opinion, you are a very fine writer.
As an Elf from Beleriand I may have helped you to know more about Cird’n since I stayed a while at Sirion's mouth - Did I tell you I was one of the few left from Fingon host after Nirnaeth Arnoediad ? - But sorry : Cird’n's thought always appeared mysterious to me as well. He made his duty to build ships for the Eldar on their way back to Valinor. And with time passing by I think that made him a sort of medium between Valinor and Middle-Earth. That may explain his intuitions or premonitions - e.g. the story with Olorin. Who knows ?
That is intriguing that you are an elf from there. And you are quite correct, who knows.
Still I should have loved to seek him out and if he would allow it, ask him questions resting in my heart . And I should have stayed for a long long while and learned all he would tell me.
But such is life. Sad Smilie
Even though I would not ordinarily think of this, I feel sure that at some point Saruman felt broken, heartsick. After all he did not start out evil, he was the actual head of the White Council. And as such he had noble motives at the beginning, was admired by most, well except Galadriel who had it seems nearly divine insight into a flaw into the white wizard's character.
But he had great great dreams for Middle-Earth. He in the beginning was no more guilty of being evil than Galadriel or Elrond or anyone else. He seems to have merely wanted to exercise his creative genius and be a pioneer, learn and apply the arts he was impassioned to master.
So as all things started to unravel, as the dark and terrible reality of the POSSIBILITY he would fail,though I doubt he allowed himself to entertain that often, but it Must have cut him at the heart. The beginning of the end if you will. In that it appears that even Gandalf had feelings of pity for him and invited him to put away those vain ambitions and sort of 'come home' and do something noble with his life once more.
Yes, but by they Saruman was so cynical that he could no longer change his spots and thus his rejection of Gandalf's offers of clemancy.
Haven't I yet mentioned the Finduilases?

Anyway, I believe both Morwen, the daughter of Baragund, and Rian, the daughter of Belegund, might be added to the list as well.
I can think of a good deal of people who earn the right to be included in the list of broken-hearted. Turin is definitely one of them. And Beren and Luthien. There is actually a lot of sorrow in all the books, but turin's tale is the only one that I can think of that does not turn out happy in the end, making it probably the saddest for that reason. All that we have of a suggestion of later joy is the prophecy that;
The spirit of Turin shall stand beside Fionw’ in the end, and it shall be the blade of Mormagil that shall slay Morgoth.
And the outline of the forgiveness of the Valar of the evil unwillingly done by Turin, and his bathing in F’s Almir, cleansing himself and Nienor of their iniquity, and their dwelling in blessedness with the Gods.
But they aren't even included or referenced in the Sil, and no where is it stated that these ideas were to last or remain, but conversely no where is it stated that they were rejected.
And then Melian, what about her? That must have been heart-breaking for her to see her beloved spouse's head thrown on the floor in front of her.

Sorrow is a part of life, and it is up to each to deal with it as best as to one's abilities. A good story must of it's own necessity have sorrow in it, as much as we should like things to stay happy, there is no point in happiness unless there is something to balance it. Something to stay happy about.
I think it is in the firey crucible of grief and sorrow that one begins to find out who he or she is.And sadly that does not always prove to be a great happy thing. If it does that is wonderful, but who will know until that dark hour? You think you know but often that is because up until the sorrow comes one's world is safe and predictable, all the ducks are in a row so to speak.
In the cartoon movie Madagascar Alex, the 'wildly' popular lion of probably the richest zoo in the world, the Manhattan zoo, is king of everything. He is loved, pampered to the nth degree and he has an answer for everything. He seems to be the perfect cat.
But when by a series of misadventures he finds himself not only on a ship bound for Kenya but has his crate tossed overboard and ends up on the shores of Madagascar Alex the Lion finds that he does not know who he is. Is he a showman, a monster because he is famished and suddenly thinks of his best friend as lunch instead of his buddy, who is he. Only through the sorrow and suffering does he find himself. So in that respect that which he has lost gains him his identity.
But suffering nonetheless is hard and a lonely road; no matter how much a friend or loved one shares with you or tries to understand they cannot be inside your head nor do they possess your heart and unique set of emotions.
So I suppose one could read through the Lord of the Rings again and again and pick out more and more souls that have truly suffered if in their own special way.
That is true. You are a very perceptive person when it comes to feelings, LeeLee.
How very kind. Yes I must say that suffering emotionally since I was a teeny tiny thing did cause me to be much much more aware of others, of the fact that I could not take away their grief, nor they mine, of the fact that even though that was true, just to be there, never leave or forsake that person at least helped. Because that is when we need a lifeline, however thin and worn, or else we fall back into the water and cannot lift our heads.
I have been giving a great deal of thought lately to Edith Tolkien. When you think of it, she certainly had a broken heart for some of her life, don't you think?I mean when the newly orphaned JRR and his brother came to the boarding house she was already there, alone, with no one and so very very young.
And then she fell madly in love with our hero but he was forbidden to even write her for a couple of years since his doing so and spending vast quantities of time thinking about her greatly affected JRR's studies and the priest who became as father to them saw that as a threat to his future.What must she have thought when she heard nothing from him so that she finally turned to another and would have married him but for the interference of her former loved one.
And then her health. Here she was fragile, with an arthritic condition that worsened with the years and little ones to raise, mostly alone it seems. For the truth was, her husband was so wrapped up in his academic life, his comraderie with the Inklings and others, his having to travel, his living inside the world of his imaginary world for fifteen years where she could not follow. And she lost the joy of even playing the piano and she had been rather good at is as well.
So I wonder if at times besides his mother being an inspiration to him in h is writing, particularly of the earlier periods such as the Silmarillion and such, in addition to being the inspiratin for Luthien Tinuviel, I wonder if some of the sad, broken hearted ladies came from how he knew his lady wife felt a lot of times.
What do you think?
For the truth was, her husband was so wrapped up in his academic life, his comraderie with the Inklings and others, his having to travel, his living inside the world of his imaginary world for fifteen years where she could not follow. And she lost the joy of even playing the piano and she had been rather good at is as well.

Where have you got this from?
Let me see, well I was quite new to Tolkien and I believe some of the information came from a couple of letters to either Michael or Christopher, and the rest from a small red covered book that belongs to my eldest son who is into philology and studying and writing in many languages.
This book dealt with JRR since a small child in South AFrica, then with his mother and her kin and their abject poverty as well as his beginnings of love with words and language. It then dealt with her fragile health, her estrangement from her famiy because of her becoming Catholic along with her sister I believe, then a great deal on the priest that took over the care of him and HIlary and then a great deal to do with Edith, well in as much as it is related to JRR.
I will ask my son to locate that book and go through it and find what I am referring to. And if it is error than you can correct it. I look forward to hearing what you have to say Vir.
This book dealt with JRR since a small child in South AFrica, then with his mother and her kin and their abject poverty as well as his beginnings of love with words and language. It then dealt with her fragile health, her estrangement from her famiy because of her becoming Catholic along with her sister I believe, then a great deal on the priest that took over the care of him and HIlary and then a great deal to do with Edith, well in as much as it is related to JRR.

Is it Tolkien's biography by Humphrey Carpenter?
It only just occurred to me, that the subject Broken Hearts is rather broad.
Perhaps we, all of us have a slightly or greatly different thought as to what constitutes a broken heart.
Anyone willing to share his or her definition? I would very much like to know.
Perhaps we, all of us have a slightly or greatly different thought as to what constitutes a broken heart.

Striking it once with Sunder, and five times with Keening.
Vir, you may have meant that to be a tongue-in-cheek comment but it sounds very correct to me. A heart sundered and keening. Broken heartedness is hard to put into words, I think yours are as good as any, only the causes may be different.
One can always be poetic about love and broken tickers... but you don't really understand what it really means and feels like once you actually do experience it...

But in sometime or another everyone will get heart-broken, say a mother over a very sick child, a child losing a favourite teddy bear, being broken-hearted for someone else, like a friend, also grief, the ending of relationships...

Maybe Vir has been broken hearted, like losing his teddy bear, and it's left him grumpy Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
I'd say Vir is grumpy because he can't find any more scintillating crabs to crack with his hammer, except his poetry is ever so much better than that of the Vogons. Orc Grinning Smilie
I think the paramount example of a broken-hearted one is Nienna; she has been weeping for all pain & suffering in Arda since it was first marred by her wicked brother. Yet despite all this pain and suffering (and hence the pain of all Valar), she understood that there always would be hope - in spite of all harm, never would the will of the One be undone.

And yet, she stood up for her brother upon his release, she stood up for the cause of all that was wrong in Arda. Maybe, in her kindness, she believed that nobody was beyond redemption. Or rather, she refused to give up her hope on his redemption.
Her heartbreak sounds devestating and never ending, even with the hope. But one really can sing in the rain.
Yes I agree, our Vir has experienced some sort of heartbreak. I think it was the stockmarket Smile Smilie

I finally was priveleged to view for the first time in two years The Two Towers the other day( I could not ever before because the little one was about) and I was struck forcefully at the amount of pain , the great ocean of grief and brokeness of heart suffered by different characters in this movie. That terrible moment when Aeowyn looks over at her uncle when she finds out that Lord Aragorn is 'dead'. I could feel the pain in my own heart,.

And that defining , empty  and lonely speech given by Lord Elrond to his beloved Arwen when she tells him she has chosen a mortal life and he describes the anguish and the slow decay she will suffer after the passing of her love, the other half of her own heart. I felt grief for her , but it occurred to me that the grief of Arwen's dadda was just as deep and really , at the end he had to return across the water, knowing that like his twin, he would never behold the face of the child he had cherished for all those ages. I felt almost sick with sorrow myself.

Oh, sweet feelings in my wounded soul,

Behold, first time in my all living

I feel alive...

[ Annornil Henduluin, "The Days of the Empire"  "Wink Smilie ]

I believe, my fair Lady LeeLee, that I have felt this sorrow myself, watching these same scenes over and over again. And I have to admit the TT to be my favorite part from PJ's adaptation. It was indeed great cast and stunning performance that granted us these feelings, yet I think it takes a lot of appreciation of the script and the messages, hidden in the original story, for one to be able to sink into the motion and adopt the emotions of the characters as one own's. I never reached this parallel between Elrond and Elros. I presented this idea of yours in our group and we all were very excited. Thank you!

Group? How intriguing, it sounds so cool. And you are welcome.

Now this example of a broken heart might make some smile, but if anyone has loved an animal, been a fan of animal movies, the old ones with hearts worn on sleeves and all that majestic violin music, well it will not seem so odd.

When it is realized that the fellowship must go through Moria and dear Sam is told Bill cannot go , he is heart sick with worry and broken hearted, for Bill has already been so mistreated and the thought that he might endure still worse at the hands of the enemy is too much. I felt so badly for Sam I cried.

I honestly do not know how the Children of Hurin could even be written. Page after agonizing page of horror, grief, such sorrow. I remember as I read along I often had trouble even breathing properly for the broken heartedness I felt for so many. I was wrung right out emotionally by the end. I have never reread it. I just cannot at this time.

I think Elrond was broken hearted by his daughter Arwen's decision to become mortal for Aragon.

as for Eowyn, I think she was infactuated with the strength of Aragon. She too was a warrior and I can only guess she would want to fight right a long side of him.

I believe that Betrayal is what can cause ones heart to break and it does not mean just between male and female.

It covers all

The Children of Hurin is a very intense book and reality is just like that.

i have often thought how Eowyn would have been better for Aragorn,she rode into a battle and was always at the helm when required,she was definitely deserving but then Aragorn's promise had been made long back and Arwen was so brave to choose mortality.How many can do that?Only three in the long line of Elves and Numenoreans.

This love story is quite like the one in Ivanhoe and I remember being bothered as a kid as to why Ivanhoe did not choose Rebecca.

Rarely though it seems do the people we think should pair up do just that. We are not those people in that dynamic and don't see things as they do. The  heart can be so treacherous at times and at other times knows just what is the right thing to do. Aragorn said that when he was around twenty or so and saw the breathtaking Arwen Evenstar for the first tme it was ' as if I stepped into a dream.' He never lost that. All that she may have lacked in one area he cared nothing about. Aeowyn may have had just everything in common with him, but she did not have his heart and never would. Love is like that.  Love, true love really does seem to hope all things, bear all things, endure all things. sniff .

Somewhere I recently heard(most probably a facebook application resultSmile Smilie)that there are only two kinds of happy people in this world-one are those who have been loved and have got all the joys from it and the other are the ones who have not yet known what love is.

Confusing but deep I guess

i have often thought how Eowyn would have been better for Aragorn,she rode into a battle and was always at the helm when required,she was definitely deserving but then Aragorn's promise had been made long back and Arwen was so brave to choose mortality.How many can do that?Only three in the long line of Elves and Numenoreans.

Éowyn riding out to the Pelennor Fields was a selfish act of desperation, because Aragorn had spurned her. She had nothing to offer someone so much above her in years and experience.

There is a poem by William Blake:

"Love seeketh not itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care,
But for another gives its ease,
And builds a heaven in hell's despair."

So sung a little Clod of Clay,
Trodden with the cattle's feet,
But a Pebble of the brook
Warbled out these metres meet:

"Love seeketh only Self to please,
To bind another to its delight,
Joys in another's loss of ease,
And builds a hell in heaven's despite."

What Éowyn felt for Aragorn, was the Love of the second kind. Or rather, the illusion of love... desiring Aragorn to get away from the thatched barns that the House of Rohan was in those days.

This is an easy question for me and it's been mentioned a few times before, but Turins plight is definitely what stirred me the most. It was akin to an epic Greek tragedy written by Homer himself or something Shakespeare would write. Every time Turin seemed to win he would lose in an even bigger way. His extremely complex tale of love between him and his sister (what a twist!!) and the plight of his mother all because of the heroic actions of his father, while the friends he would make would ultimately perish because of his doing. Simply amazing. The Children of Hurin is definitely my favorite Tolkien work, as the entire thing is just a masterfully written account of romantic tragedy and loss. The end of an entire Elvish kingdom because of a love which was never to be. I just can't get enough!!

Also the end of Beren and Luthien is pretty amazing too. Though not a tragedy in the sense of the word persay, I remember the hairs on the back of my neck actually standing on end when I finished that tale (and Turin's, for that matter). The plight of the two lovers and Luthien giving up her immortal awesome. But like I said, Tolkien would have rivaled if not outdone some of the greatest Greek and Norse tragedy writers before his time, which is just amazing.

Balrogs R US I agree with you. What Tolkien accomplished, the structure of his tales, the intense drama, the epic  stature of the works would indeed rival any other epics ever written. I believe that professor Tolkien's intense love of words, which in my mind made him the greatest philologist period, this love of words and the impact they have on the mind drove him to use them in such a way as to be breathtaking and rather immortal in their power to shake up the reader, no matter the age or background or ethnicity.

His words and their impact are universal, totally awesome.

Vir 2, you have rather hit the nail on the head with your description of the sort of love Aeowyn had for Lord Aragorn. It was too tied up I think in her dreams for herself, to become a maid of renown. I think when the smoke and fire were over there would not be all that much to keep the fire between them burning, whereas since Aragorn had lived with Elrond and was steeped in much that was Elvish and the strange beauty that was woven into the Elvish culture, he fitted in beautifully with that world and lady Arwen fitted in beautifully with all that he was and thought.

could any of professor Tolkien's characters feel more broken and desolate than we at planet-tolkien do for the loss of our Grondy?  I do not believe so.

Come Leelee don't be sad.We all will meet again.I miss his presence,so witty,so tenacious.He was one of my first friends in PT and helped me get the hang of things.

And about Eowyn she is no simple maid.She was not out there trying to prove a point to Aragorn whom she knew could never be hers and what with the wars,if they lost she would forever be trapped in a disgusting existence or killed.It is for her,better to go in honour and sacrifice her life rather than sacrifice it to Wormy.Things were pretty bleak for everyone,marriage and romance and triangular love situations were to be dealt with much later if one returned home physically intact.So maybe Aragorn was adding up to her woes but that was not the sole reason for her to go to war or just give up her life.

There are I believe as many kinds of love as there are moments in time so who knows what happened in her heart,maybe she was infatuated by his rank and glory,maybe she truly loved him,who knows.She was so smothered,her life never blossomed until Faramir came.This love story is not rushed,Faramir might have won her over with his love.which can do miracles I guess.

That was a good answer, thank you.

I think the slow decay of the Elves in Middle-Earth, the gradual shutting down of the time of the Elves to make way for the time of Man must have given some broken hearts. After all by choice they came to Middle-Earth to start new lives. Galadrial wanted to rule over others and make a world of her very own creation and choosing. All the work, all the beauty, all the hard fighting against evil forces, only to have to walk away from it all and go back surely must have hurt the hearts of some.

Therefore the journey to the Grey Havens and over the sea must have been a bitter sweet journey.

I was going through the Silmarillion (again!) when something struck me. I think one of the biggest broken hearts, yet which is rarely mentioned would be between Feanor and his wife Nerdanel.


...but his later deeds grieved her, and they became estranged.


I tried to put myself in her place and to imagine how she would have felt with living with Feanor specially when he was poisoned with the lies of Morgoth and the fire in his heart grew so hot that his deeds threatened even his own kindred.


Moreover, she is not mentioned again in the Silmarillion so I assume that she stayed in Valinor separated from Feanor. Furthermore, when we think that Feanor is doomed to remain in the halls of Mandos until the End has come, how would she spend her long elvish life, in loneliness and shadow of a grief which will have surely marked her deeply. I think these events show the worth of the gift of Illuvatar to men, a quick escape from the confines of the world...

Brilliant Thorin, just brilliant and so right. I had never ever given her that much thought and yet it is dreadful, the feeling of doom,grief and sorrow you aptly portray in your words struck me deeply and I too cannot imagine how she passed the time, always thinking of him, always enduring the torment of grief. I shall go and reread that bit. Thank you very much.

I was reading The Letters and was struck by the underlying and continuing grief of JRR at the corruption of his work in other countries. I say grief, because he shows that his work on LOTR took so many years and he spent so much time upstairs in that tiny room working, working, bringing the vision of that incredible world to the page for all to read. And then to have words changed just like that or meanings , things that were  absolutely germaine to the body of work was just agonizing . I felt so very sad and angry myself when I read of his trials .

At least he seemed to very happy with the Dutch translation.

Was his  being pleased right from the start to finish Vir? I have to take down The Letters and read through it once more.

I and my family started the 'Hobbit Club' a couple of weeks ago and it is proving terribly interesting and fun. It consists of only us , but each night I usually bake something wonderful for a treat and put on the coffee, tea and hot chocolate and the adults take turns reading. We are at the part of little Bilbo Baggins taking off the ring and magnificently entering the little camp right under Dwalin's nose, and all the dwarves now thinking ever so highly of the 'little burglar'.

After last night's reading I began thinking of the truly majestic and amazing Thorin Oakenshield . Here was a dwarf so intelligent and craftsworthy, a person of immense skill and thought. He decided he and his kin would make tht truly long march through every hellish circumstance to go and reclaim all the gold and silver and jewels under the mountain and under the cruel and gross Smaug. He was a man of vision and singular purpose and he was determined to fulfill the 'prophecies' if you will of the dwarves. And then the wealth and the lure of the booty over came him and in the end he died there, having tasted of no glory or having a future to enjoy all that he had suffered for. I think in his dying moments there must have been a deep wailing kind of grief that encompassed his dear heart and I am sure the other dwarves that lived were deeply broken hearted as well.

I wish I had a family to share my "Tolkien Love" with, but my wife is not interested at all (love novels and romantic movies type of girl- Oh, I love her!). Anyway I felt so happy and some wormth went into my chest when I read the first part of your post! I imagined (had a glimpse of dream) a family sitting around in a warm room with nice warm light (candels would be nice). I think I've read that you live in Canada, so there is a winter now- beautiful chill on the windows and all... I envy you and I am happy for you at the same time. Well we have a group (few people loving Tolkien) and haven't had a meeting this year but I am having them all together tomorrow and it will be "The year of THE HOBBIT".

Thorin was a very intraging character and I felt sad when he passed away. Reminds you how people shall not forget the real values and set their goals towards the true virtues.

Oh Ammornil how I bless you with the greatest joy at your meeting and may your membership swell and overjoy you. Perhaps your wife will just let you read bits to her, it does not take anything much to get right into this great body of work.

You were very correct. We were sitting in the living room, candles, the fire place and the covering on the long sofa is very soft and luxurious faux fur, warm and comforting against the biting wind and chill outside. Our lives have been so very stressful this year and last that these little interludes are so needed to give us the strength to go on. And as I listened last evening I felt myself swept up with the eagles as they came in the twelfth hour to rescue Gandalf , the dwarves and our dear little Bilbo Baggins of the
Shire. And later the account of Beorn and our reading ended just as he left the building after the wondrous dinner he served our wandering troup, of rich honey and cream. yum. It was lovely, I wish you were here.

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