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I agree  Rukain, and think of this,- Samwise was a man of peace, someone who had spent his days in quiet joy tending to a garden for his beloved and much looked up to master Frodo. It was from Frodo Sam first learned his letters, it was from the Baggins-Bilbo and Frodo that Sam first felt the fire in his heart toward the Elves and longed to learn of them. He was never separated from those that mattered to him, his father the Gaffer, his beloved Rosie , and he had never been out of the shire in the whole of his life.

    And now here was this hobbit, totally out of his element without a tree, bush, shrub or flower to even give him hope or courage as Mordor came into view. Only hideous orcs and the searing smell of evil. And now the hobbit he was devoted to was slowly letting go of his mind and his wits because of the weight of this monstrous ring, so really Frodo and Gollum were in their twisted worlds and Samwise Gamghee found himself utterly alone. Rosie was far away, his hope of the future and he had not even Merry and Pippin  to turn to. All was darkness and madness and sorrow. Talk about broken hearts.  

Oh, Sam! How terrible, and how much more my own heart aches for him!

Another thing, is that I have noticed Elrond has come up several times throughout this discussion, and I would like to say: I feel that Elrond in the movie was not at all as I expected him after reading the books. He seemed so lacking emotion, like he was supposed to care passionately about his daughter and her future, and love Middle-Earth and want to save it, but in the film, he didn't. I understand the broken heart he must have had, but I feel that in the film, I couldn't quite believe it. This is just my opinion, and I would like to hear others' opinions as well.



, please come back, I miss you and worry over you. If you are able do please drop in and be with us, if for only a moment or two.

I agree with your feelings of Elrond, I have no idea why he was portrayed so erroneously and shamefully in the movie. He knew always of Aragorn whom he took care of like a father  and his destiny. He understood even the alliance of Aragorn and his only daughter, for the coming King was King of Elves and men and so the blood lines were mingled and by his child marrying Aragorn prophecies were fulfilled. He already grieved in his heart privately and was prepared by the end though the grief was not less on account of it. The whole thing was shoddy. The way some of the movies were treated was in itself enough to give Tolkien a broken heart if he had lived to watch them.

I feel that some of the characters in the film were truly well done, and certain scenes were amazing, and of course the scenery was incredible, but in the elves in general, I was thoroughly disappointed.

What is truly sad, is how full of suffering and brokenness Tolkien's work are, and how truly accurate that is. One of the things I have noticed in any good story, is it is good, because of the way it applies itself to real life, to the world around and in us. Just as there is great corruption and evil in Middle-Earth, so there is evil in our world. And just as there is overwhelming pain, war and suffering, so there is around us, every day, no matter where or who you are. The world is broken hearted. But also, just as there is hope and light and justice and honor, just as there is Gandalf and Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli, and dear loyal Samwise Gamgee, so there are friends to take your hand, and so there is hope for the hopeless, and light for the lost. And just as there is happy endings, so must our world have happy endings.

In The Letters by our professor as you read along from one year to the next, as he got older and had experienced already the dreadful death of his mother, the loss before that of his father, the war in which a number of his mates from The Inklings perished-all this and his deep faith which came forth from the Bible- all these things convinced Tolkien that which some happy endings are inevitable, more than not they would not occur as a rule until Eru had dealt completely with evil. So there was always a bitter sweet feeling in all the canon of his work. This one and that one or this generation in this place might experience bliss of some sort-the Hobbits did for a while and were quite ignorant of the evil war fought on their behalf for the longest tiime, but in the end all living things were touched and harmed. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were untouched as far as themselves, but I don't believe they were so self absorbed that they did not grieve for the rest of Middle-Earth, after all Tom would have conversed with Treebeard and Gandalf from time to time i am sure and they could hear what was going on about them.

As in his real life where daily mass and utter faith in the promise of God to be with him and his family no matter what the griefs, ,so too did the characters in LOTR , the heroes , believe utterly in the value and sanctity if you willl of good and determined to spend their lives whatever the outcome defeating the darkness and bringing back the light and thus being able to dwell in Middle-Earth in some sort of peace.

Happiness does not appear to have much importance in their lives, it is not the thing they valued most, but it was freedom from tyrany and brutality and being able to live in the manner Eru had intended from the beginning. That always came first before any personal happiness. There are those of us today who live in the same manner, happiness is a welcome extra if it can be obtained in the fight against darkness, but the fight comes first and so many walk about with truly broken hearts while carrying on doing what they can personally do while there is still time as Gandalf told Frodo. It is not ours to wonder why or complain.

I would like to put in a special mention to the man I believe has become Gandalf, Sir Ian. I have seen all of his movies and have come to Love him like a Grandfather. Ian's characterisation of Gandalf, for me is spot on. He manages to capture the ancientness and wisdom of Mithradir without making him the be all and end all of goodness and power. His wonderful face, full of knowledge, heartbreak, joy and disappointment never loses your attention even when he is not speaking. Re topic: Gandalf would have had a broken heart. Broken by millennia of disappointment in Men. On a mission that although Noble, shouldn't have needed to be, yet was required because of the weakness of Men.

An interesting point Brego! We all know that the Valar, Manwe in particular are said to be grieved by the ways of men. Yet, I do not think that they are solely to blame for that matter. The men of old can also be said to have a grief that, unlike their elder kindred the firstborn of Eru, they never saw the lights and wisdom of those who were before Ea, nor had their guidance, friendship and tutorage. Men came into being under the shadow of Morgoth and his emissaries it were that they met most likely before any other race. Thus many of their hearts became darkened even in their young days.


Yet can we really examine the grief between the powers and men when we know that what causes the Valar to grief is infact the gift of Eru to men, to live a short life and depart and that their hearts never rests on one feat but moves on and on. The Valar themselves do not clearly understand the purpose of men, all they know is that a place has been kept for them for what will Be after Ea. Yet in the halls of Ea, despite the plans of Eru, I would say that the grief of Men as a kindred is often overlooked. Even those of the three houses, friends to the Eldar, and sharers of their sorrow were never allowed sight of the Undying lands of those who govern Ea and live among the elves. 


Edited by Thorin

Beautiful thoughts and reasoning, thankyou for that.

I think that Fangorn Forest had a broken heart when orcs came along and started ripping and cutting and destroying at will, greatly lessoning their numbers. They did have feelings after all, they showed anger for one thing.

Too true Thorin. And even those of the ruling line of Numenor showed weakness of mind at crucial times. I think of the ultimate example of weakness and pride of Isildur in failing to detroy the ring when he had the chance long ago. And Lee Lee re Fangorn and The Old Forest and Green Wood the Great would all have broken hearts. Broken just like their original realms, which were now in tatters from years of Man, Dwarf and Orcs felling.

This has nothing to do with this topic but I just had a funny thought that some people are going to be pretty much brokenhearted when the hobbit will be released, and we have a new influx of members, to find the name of Thorin Oakenshield already taken!

THE BEST Thorin, and you are so right, how hysterical, Thorin Oakenshield is the most awesome of names. Poor poor broken hearted hobbit movie goers. indecision

Thorin, this is so true!

How it looked when the LOTR movies were out? Did you had some sort of major turnout at that time?

I think there was , a great deal of people just wanted a place to talk about the surging emotions coming from the movie.

I think the book publishers might be broken hearted if the movie is less than stellar and the modern magic turns any one away from digging into the actual book.

I was thinking of Saruman and wondered if , at the end of it all for him, did he think back all those long ages and remember the beginning, how glorious it all was, the splendor, he dignity, the wonder of life. And did he remember the precise moment when greed and lust of power came into his heart and found shelter there?

Did Saruman have a moment, even the tiniest moment in time  when his heart grieved for the utter waste of his life from that point on , did he miss those that once had been his great friends, to love and learn from and fellowship with ? Did he have for that one heart beat a broken heart? Or had he become so corrupted that the past and the  beauty of it all was held by him with hatred and contempt? I wonder.

What about Illuvatar, who created everything and everyone out of love and generosity. He meant all things for good and joy and beauty and had to watch everything turn from gold and silver to dark and hideous and see good trampled under evil for ages. How broken hearted he must have been.

Hello Leelee.  This is the first time I am commenting on what you have posted, but I have read you a lot and find you sweet and profound.  So I'm glad to start exchanging ideas with you.

About Saruman, I believe you are right.  Remember, when his smoke goes up at the end, it looks towards the West, longingly for sure, and it's pretty safe to bet that before the winds dispersed  him he had a moment of very deep regret.  But so much as a broken heart, I don't know...

My personal top broken heart is Turin Turambar: not just at the terrible end of his life, but all through it ever since his father rides away to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, never to return, and then his mother sending him away in great risk and secrecy.  After all, I would say that being singled out as the prime objective of Morgoth's hatred and cruelty is a running head start for extreme heartbreak.  Even Hurin himself maybe did not suffer as much as his son, because he was a warrior fighting his greatest battle; and actually winning it, in spite of losing everything... because Morgoth was unable to break him.  Turin, meanwhile, was a child who began receiving pain early on, and remember also that his mother was hard as nails and not given to creating emotional reserves for her son to help himself with in the future.  

Oh, I could go on and on about Turin.  But surely the top broken heart.

True re Turin Marghana and his heart would have been broken many times. Not the least his heart surely would have been torn asunder when he realised he had killed his great friend and (by error, misfortune and misrecognition) mentor Beleg the Elf in a stupor of terror after the terror and torture of the putrid forces of Melkor. Truly awful and possibly long planned out via the curse on his great family by The First Dark Lord.

For me, the story that always reduces me to tears is the tale of Luthien and Beren. They did have their happy ending at the last (and in my mind their true happiness only occurred upon their second death when they went together beyond the circles of the world). Yet all of the suffering and trials they endured to attain it breaks my heart. To me, no woman in Middle-earth has ever been through more for the sake of her beloved.

Still... my greater grief lies with the tale of Arwen and Aragorn. Though their struggle was perhaps not as epic, the fact that their future together after death is uncertain is tragic. Luthien was allowed to be counted among Men, and to go where they go, following Beren beyond the Westernmost seas. As far as we know, Arwen was not given that choice, and the possibility that they must remain sundered until the ending of the world (and beyond...?) is more than I could bear when I read their story.

But I still cling to hope with the last words of Aragorn who held his faith in their love even unto death:

"In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever in the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. Farewell!"

That´s not true, Arwen had a choice and she choose the be counted among men, so she would be reunited with Aragon and with Luthien, I don´t know why she would have a broken heart, she got what she wanted (Beren) and then was happy. Melian would have a broken heart probably. IMHO there are people in ME who had a harder life than Luthien, but maybe I´m biased, couse I don´t think Luthien is that great at all, I know she is said to be the greatest.

Celebrian could have a broken heart too because of the loss of arwen and maybe even the twins and it was not even possible for her to see the wedding or meet her son in law and she is the only elven women who looses a child "forever" isn´t she? Idril has Earendil in Valinor, Nimloth has Elwing in Valinor too, so Melian and Celebrian are the only mothers who are separated from their children.

Nerwen Im not sure why you think that Luthien did not have a hard life.  Sure the first brief years were probably easy for her as a royal Elf Princess of the house of Thingol.  But everything after that is simply awful.  She lived through the death, ruin and ransack of her fathers house.  Watched as her lover really died twice.  Watched as her did eventually died and early on as there was no such thing as the Half Elven at this stage thought she would never see him again.  She fought the most awful of any of the Dark Forces ever to walk Arda.  Left the country of her birth to live on a tiny Island. Returned from the dead to break her Mothers heart, and finally died probably wearing a cursed Silmaril.  Sounds pretty awful to me....

Her story was able to move Mandos, who never had and never has since been moved so there must be something to her/their tale.

Marghana, welcome and any of you I don't know well or at all. Your words are kind.

When i read the painful story of Erendis and her so very deep love for Aldorion I got afraid. She was so kind and gentle and being that her life span was small compared to Tar Aldorion i began to wish with all my heart that he would just stop it and speak plainly to the girl and walk away from her, that she might grieve for the loss of even the hope of him and then perhaps marry well and happily. But he did not, and his sort of love for her turned sour so very quickly. Then he had dark thoughts and was unkind and even cruel to her. She of course was cold and mean spirited from her shame and grief. Such a brokeness in her. But the child of their unhappy union, little Ancalime, bereft of the father she loved dearly, then spirited away almost to live in a place devoid of men. Turning inward and receiving so much hurt from the cancer of bitterness and hate between her parents. On top of that the shepherd, actually one in line for the throne playing a trick on her and pretending to be a shepherd, shaming her in front of her lady servants and the men they married spiting her. It was awful. I could scarce breathe. If ever there was a need for the wisdom of Gandalf, Lady Galadriel, Lord Elrond and others that was it, but of course that was a different time and place. I remember being distressed for days and weeping for the girls.I was torn for Aldarion , I no longer respected him as husband and father, but he helped Cirdan immensely. He should have simply renounced his title to his father and left and went to live with Cirdan with some men who were single and then sailed the seas at will.

Hi, Leelee,

I agree somewhat on the embittered love of Erendis and Aldarion.  I still consider Turin's lot the worst possible, loss and loss and more loss and terrible loss... but his enemy was the oh-so-powerful Dark Lord, and there was no way it could be different for him.  Now in the case of the Númenorians, it might be an especially painful high degree of heartbreak when your loss is brought about by your own flaws of character, like when it is said that you made your bed, now sleep on it.  

And it is true also that this emotional strife maimed the next generation emotionally.  For many reasons I find  this to be a very modern sort of story, also practically no elven magic and even less presence of the Valar.  Practically not a fantasy tale at all, and so vividly drawn that I could easily believe this was a story the Professor knew from life.

Ithilien, hi.  Yes, Luthien for sure, though their story is so beautiful that my own tears tend to be from sheer emotion.  In fact, I do think that the strongest heartbreak in that story is Melian's, and it does draw a parallel with Arwen's in that they live the bliss first and then the loss.  You know how they say, it's better to have loved and lost than never have loved at all.  

Nerwen Im not sure why you think that Luthien did not have a hard life.  Sure the first brief years were probably easy for her as a royal Elf Princess of the house of Thingol.  But everything after that is simply awful.  She lived through the death, ruin and ransack of her fathers house.  Watched as her lover really died twice.  Watched as her did eventually died and early on as there was no such thing as the Half Elven at this stage thought she would never see him again.  She fought the most awful of any of the Dark Forces ever to walk Arda.  Left the country of her birth to live on a tiny Island. Returned from the dead to break her Mothers heart, and finally died probably wearing a cursed Silmaril.  Sounds pretty awful to me....

Same would apply then for Galadriel for example, she lived through the death, ruin and ransack of her fathers and uncles house too, saw all her relatives die, that was nothing extraordinary this times.

Furthermore every women would have done what Luthien did for the men she truely loved, if she would be successful is another matter. That was self-serving and kinda selfish, she did it for her own desire (Beren) and not for the community. She accepted that her parents would life in grief forever.

Left the country of her birth to live on a tiny Island


But that´s exactly what she wanted to, so I don´t expect her to be too unhappy about that.  She was able to return with Beren, have a family with him and be with him forever after dead.

In this respect Galadriel is more selfless, she accepted that her last home on earth would vanish by destroying the ring, knowing or thinking that she was not able to return to Valinor, so she would no longer be protected from the affects of time. Other than Luthien she chose to life in ME hell  over a peaceful life in aman to fight evil or  for the exercise of her talents, whereas Luthien only became active after Beren entered her life, did she before that event cared about what was going on in ME? I don´t got the impression. Galadriel did more for the greater good than Luthien IMHO. Luthien is IMHO a flat character, I see more character in Galadriel. Luthien is like the little beautiful princess which does everything to save her beloved, Galadriel on the other hand gives me the sense of true strenght, intellect, and the will to have some impact on the development of the world. If Beren wouldn´t have come, Luthien maybe would sit these days in Doriath still (or in Aman). Luthiens life turns about love, that´s kinda boring, even if her deeds are not.

I know Tolkien said that Luthien was the greatest elf, but did he maybe change his mind? Becouse in the Lotr appendics he said hat galadriel was the greatest of elven women, either that´s because Luthien left the circles of the world or he really did change his mind, for I take his statement more for general and not tied to some timeframe, except he says so of course.  But then there is the quote from "Morgoths Ring" I believe where Luthien is said to be the greatest together with the greatest elves of Valinor (Feanor and Galadriel), alas I don´t know which statement was his last.

To return to the topic, Galadriel had at least a life as hard as Luthiens IMHO and maybe a broken heart too, but I don´t think too much, cause in her wisdom she would surely see that all this is Erus plan and that it has to be.



Nerwen, I do not understand why you believe Luthien was being selfish simply because she loved Beren and wanted to be with him. If you loved someone that your parents did not approve of, would you forsake that person just to make your parents happy?

As for her deeds, many women may like to think they would brave hell itself for the sake of their beloved, but not many would actually do it, as is the case with Luthien. Love drove her to great deeds, but it was her character that accomplished them. And she did suffer as a result of them. Even Mandos himself recognized that. Comparing her accomplishments and motives to Galadriel's seems unnecessary as they were two different elf-women with two entirely different circumstances and lives.

Also, if not for the fact that Luthien loved Beren, the entire fate of Middle-earth would have been quite different. There would be no Elrond, and no Aragorn for that matter. Furthermore, Professor Tolkien held Luthien's character in very high regard, as she was loosely based on his beloved wife Edith. In a letter to his son Christopher, he writes:

"I never called Edith Luthien – but she was the source of the story that in time became the chief part of the Silmarillion. It was first conceived in a small woodland glade filled with hemlocks at Roos in Yorkshire (where I was for a brief time in command of an outpost of the Humber Garrison in 1917, and she was able to live with me for a while). In those days her hair was raven, her skin clear, her eyes brighter than you have seen them, and she could sing – and dance. But the story has gone crooked, & I am left, and I cannot plead before the inexorable Mandos."

It appears to me that Tolkien held the character of Luthien dear to his heart indeed. And so do I - in her story I have shared her pain and her sorrow. Not many characters can accomplish that.

Brego wrote: Nerwen Im not sure why you think that Luthien did not have a hard life. Sure the first brief years were probably easy for her as a royal Elf Princess of the house of Thingol. (...) 


Your discussion with Nerwen aside for the moment, Luthien had very arguably lived for thousands of years before Beren arrived.

The Grey Annals notes that the time of her birth is not known, but adds that it was held to be in Valian Year 1200 'at the end of the first age of the Chaining of Melkor.' One can stress that it was unknown, but putting an actual date on this suggests at least a general time period. I mean...

... even if it's off by a thousand years! it was at least 2700 years (simplifying the math here) from Valian Year 1200 until Sun Year reckoning, and then hundreds of years until Beren showed up.


Nerwen wrote: I know Tolkien said that Luthien was the greatest elf, but did he maybe change his mind? Becouse in the Lotr appendics he said hat galadriel was the greatest of elven women, either that´s because Luthien left the circles of the world or he really did change his mind, for I take his statement more for general and not tied to some timeframe, except he says so of course. But then there is the quote from "Morgoths Ring" I believe where Luthien is said to be the greatest together with the greatest elves of Valinor (Feanor and Galadriel), alas I don´t know which statement was his last.


If you mean Galadriel greatest of Elven women from Appendix B, it appears that that was actually added by Tolkien to the second edition -- I'm going to guess for an edition published in 1965, based on one of my earlier paperbacks. In any case, according to author's note (note 14) to The Shibboleth of Feanor, The Peoples of Middle-Earth...

'These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,* were unfriends for ever.'

*Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.'

JRRT, 1968 or later


So in the arguably later description Galadriel and Feanor are noted as the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, and Luthien the greatest of all the Eldar.

A very late text (the adumbrated tale of Galadriel) compares Galadriel to Feanor again; Christopher Tolkien notes ('he' being JRRT): 'In this he emphasized the commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor, the equal if unlike endowments of Feanor' 

Thanks for that Galin, I thought she was only a teenager..... I meant brief in the eyes of the immortals for whom she was considered young.

Brego wrote: Thanks for that Galin, I thought she was only a teenager..... I meant brief in the eyes of the immortals for whom she was considered young.  

Ah I see; so when you wrote...

'Sure the first brief years were probably easy for her as a royal Elf Princess of the house of Thingol. But everything after that is simply awful. She lived through the death...'

 ... which basically compares Luthien's years before she met Beren to her years after meeting Beren...

... well then I guess the years after she met Beren (the awful years) were notably brief, in the eyes of the immortals.

Coming back to the Fangorn Forest, I think the trees were silent or dumb because of so many cruelties they have suffered and seen. Though some of them could move (Ents) they stayed there standing on their roots becauese where could they go? if wherever they see there was darkness and pain? I can make myself an idea of Middle Earth in those years. Dark sky, smell of smoke and blood, battles, fury, revenge... all those folks making war against evil, fighting for their lives and freedom and what about their home? Arda? Probably the Elves and the wizards were the only ones who know that Mordor would kill them but nature too; perhaps that made them fight with more cleverness and not only rage or anxiety to win. They carried a burden that Men or Dwarves could not understand, maybe Hobbits.


That is indeed very sad, poor forest, really and you are correct, what could they actually do except internalize their grief and turn it out again when someone came into their territory they felt was an enemy.

For me, poor Erendis and Aldorion's child Ancalime lived mostly broken and bitter lives. Erendis, because of h er almost painful love of Tar Aldorion who really didn't want her but did not want her to go to anyone else in case he changed his mind. And his almost contempt of his own country as it were, his own place, always wandering off from his father the ruler when he should have been preparing to take over. Because of his very great love for the sea it would have been better to pass the sceptre to the next in line, say goodbye to Erendis before she was destroyed and went and continued to assist Cirdan the Shipwright. And little Ancalime, who watched the enmity between father and mother and also endure years of separation from her father while he and the men who were the same as him had their adventures and gay times. She grew up never knowing males in her mother's household and then was tricked by a relative who pretended to be a shepherd. That turned out so ugly and he humiliated her publically in front of her own servants. Just dreadful Talk about broken hearts turning black and cruel. i still weep when i read it . A waste of precious lives, hopes and dreams.

Elbereth of course the Ents.....  Goodness broken hearts, longing for their dear wives and broken further while sitting by while their realm is torn down over millennia.  Truly sad.

Lee Lee, your words are also truly heartfelt and heavy regarding Numenor.  Imagine the difference in life style the Eldar would have witnessed in their visits to the great Western Isle.  In the days of Elros, love, tranquility, equality.  Then down the line as the Kings became more and more Jealous, dictatorial and proud, the tension and sadness must have been awful for them.

I too feel for all women of the time of the end of Westerness as they would in the most part have been, little more than surps and slaves as I imagine that Saurons influence would not have held women in high regard.

i remember the first time our family watched The Fellowship.. When the part of Boromir giving in only momentarily to wrong reasoning came and his deep remorse and brokeness , we all wept openly. He was a good man, having had to fight the enemy on behalf of his kingdom and others all that time. All he wanted was peace and freedom from the enemy, to push back the second darkness once and for all. He mistakenly underestimated the power and scope of the Necromancer and what his thought and power put into a single ring honestly meant. Terrible. Such sorrow before he died.

Yes Leelee Borimir's final realisation of who Aragorn truly was and that perhaps the long held belief that the True King would return in his lifetime Is palpable in book and film. Boromirs dark actions of deception, thanks to the ever powerful rings influence, would have weighed heavily on his great heart at his end. I'm sure that Iluvatar held a special place for him, in his halls for the souls of mortal folk. A great Man with a great Doom. I love the relationship between Boromir and his brother Farimir. Perhaps the Professor relied on his relationship with his own brother, and used this experience in his writing. Both being orphans they would have had a very special relationship. Broken hearts indeed.

In my opinion Boromir was the best description of Mankind. He has 2 sides, the good one always ready to fight for his folk, reliable, tender in love towards his brother and loyal to his father. On the other side was his pride of being a person of respect in his land, the shame of losing power despite all the effort given day after day, etc. I think he was noble but the pressure of his father's desires of power were stronger and hurt him deeply. How could he disagree with Denethor? He knew his father was wrong in many things but he kept fighting under his commands. Usually children behave to please their parents and once they "fail", the load of this unique disagreement is heavier than all the good actions already made. Boromir waited for his father congratulations all his life, but Denethor's heart was almost a stone. A broken family, 3 broken hearts.

Yes Elbereth, too true, three hearts broken and one mind as well unfortunately for the Stewards line.

I think there are many, especially in the Simarillon, like Tolkien used to called himself Beren (and his wife Luthien), that comes from one of the greatest love stories there. Also I think that Arwen's love story with Aragon is pretty sad, if you read the Appendix, you'll see that it is not so cheerful or happy for her. I think Eowyn finally finds some happiness at the end with Eomer.. or we hope she does!

Yes Constanza, there are many broken hearts in Tolkien stories, as life itself. There are always good and bad moments, the only thing is that despite all evil we must always keep hope and fight for what we feel it's worthy. Then we will have the reward. Eowyn is a fantastic example, she hated to live in a cage. Days went by and she stood there beautiful and fragile to the others; however she was stronger than anyone thought and she gave up fighting against her "female fate", accepting her position and knowing what she could do -she learnt it in the battle-, love appeared and she lived happily with Faramir. Sometimes we fight against ourselves, we want to show what we are able to do because if not, we feel uncompleted and once we face it, take it outside for the others to see, we remain the same but our soul feel more free. Eowyn is the reflection on a mirror of many people.

A deep welcome Constanza, have you introduced yourself in the newcomers thread? I hope so,everyone will want to know you have come to us.

Very good points as well.

I have never been clear in my mind, no matter what has been written, no matter what has been spoken, about Aewoyn whom I identify with and love and whose avy I use. This is my problem.:

I know from experience that the constant and prolonged battering the mind and heart take from either abuse or trauma, especially the loss of loved ones by tragedy or abandonment , i know that this can so wound the heart and thinking, that even if suddenly peace and kindness, the loyal love of other's newly come sometimes simply cannot change the real heart and mind. I know that the wounded one is much like the survivor of a concentration camp in that when finally free the haunting terror never truly leaves, the lost ones are never truly let go of, so that the new genuine ones can never take the place of those lost nor bring true joy or evoke real love from the heart of the traumatized one.

I not only suffered this sort of thing, but in time made it my first occupation to work with the children, youth and adults sent to me who like me sufferered thest things. And i observed first hand that most of them, like me were living two lives, the one that haunted their days and terrorized their nights, and the one that, on the surface seemed happy and content, for they like me would never ever let on to the new that we were in fact suffering and for the most part incapaable of giving that first sort of love ever again nor able to receive and trust in such.  And for me, in my deepest heart, in view of what i have lived, i feel that Aeowyn, despite her wanting fame in the tradition of men, despite this, i feel she knew herself well and loved deeply and when mummy died, no one could take her place, when daddy died, no one at all could take his place, the same when cousin died. As for her uncle , he was not i the least in her mind daddy but uncle whom she looked up to as well as her ardent love for her brother. And so when Aragorn came into her life he fit absolutely in speech, valour, gentleness yet strength the one she waited for.  period, end of story. And when that was taken from her she died a special kind of death. And only he was able to bring her out of it. Being both king and priest he did so. And only because it would have deeply hurt him i believe did she accept healing and go on. She saw such good and valour in Faramir in my opinion and accepted his love. But i do not believe for a moment that she was ever in love with him. She treated him with deep courtesty and kindness and a love that was genuine but not the real thing because she had decided to go on. But I believe she only loved forever Aragorn and do not believe it was an illusion that she loved but all of him. So in my opinion she was always deep in the core of her grateful for her new life, but also broken hearted. period.

Oh, Leelee, you resonate like a chord between worlds.  It's so good to know there are people like you out there, stopping the wheel and making change happen for the good of all.

Back to Boromir, his story is so moving, his end so heart-wrenching.  He died at peace, at the very last, but still racked with guilt.  In my imagination, this would make him a great candidate for the final Battle, and that is why I resolved my story Boromir's Boat in this way.   Galadriel's care for his final destiny was my projection, speaking for many of us.

How very interesting your life is Marghana and I can't wait to here more from you.

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