I agree  Rukain, and think of this,- Samwise was a man of peace, someone who had spent his days in quiet joy tending to a garden for his beloved and much looked up to master Frodo. It was from Frodo Sam first learned his letters, it was from the Baggins-Bilbo and Frodo that Sam first felt the fire in his heart toward the Elves and longed to learn of them. He was never separated from those that mattered to him, his father the Gaffer, his beloved Rosie , and he had never been out of the shire in the whole of his life.

    And now here was this hobbit, totally out of his element without a tree, bush, shrub or flower to even give him hope or courage as Mordor came into view. Only hideous orcs and the searing smell of evil. And now the hobbit he was devoted to was slowly letting go of his mind and his wits because of the weight of this monstrous ring, so really Frodo and Gollum were in their twisted worlds and Samwise Gamghee found himself utterly alone. Rosie was far away, his hope of the future and he had not even Merry and Pippin  to turn to. All was darkness and madness and sorrow. Talk about broken hearts.  

Halbard

, please come back, I miss you and worry over you. If you are able do please drop in and be with us, if for only a moment or two.

I agree with your feelings of Elrond, I have no idea why he was portrayed so erroneously and shamefully in the movie. He knew always of Aragorn whom he took care of like a father  and his destiny. He understood even the alliance of Aragorn and his only daughter, for the coming King was King of Elves and men and so the blood lines were mingled and by his child marrying Aragorn prophecies were fulfilled. He already grieved in his heart privately and was prepared by the end though the grief was not less on account of it. The whole thing was shoddy. The way some of the movies were treated was in itself enough to give Tolkien a broken heart if he had lived to watch them.

In The Letters by our professor as you read along from one year to the next, as he got older and had experienced already the dreadful death of his mother, the loss before that of his father, the war in which a number of his mates from The Inklings perished-all this and his deep faith which came forth from the Bible- all these things convinced Tolkien that which some happy endings are inevitable, more than not they would not occur as a rule until Eru had dealt completely with evil. So there was always a bitter sweet feeling in all the canon of his work. This one and that one or this generation in this place might experience bliss of some sort-the Hobbits did for a while and were quite ignorant of the evil war fought on their behalf for the longest tiime, but in the end all living things were touched and harmed. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were untouched as far as themselves, but I don't believe they were so self absorbed that they did not grieve for the rest of Middle-Earth, after all Tom would have conversed with Treebeard and Gandalf from time to time i am sure and they could hear what was going on about them.

As in his real life where daily mass and utter faith in the promise of God to be with him and his family no matter what the griefs, ,so too did the characters in LOTR , the heroes , believe utterly in the value and sanctity if you willl of good and determined to spend their lives whatever the outcome defeating the darkness and bringing back the light and thus being able to dwell in Middle-Earth in some sort of peace.

Happiness does not appear to have much importance in their lives, it is not the thing they valued most, but it was freedom from tyrany and brutality and being able to live in the manner Eru had intended from the beginning. That always came first before any personal happiness. There are those of us today who live in the same manner, happiness is a welcome extra if it can be obtained in the fight against darkness, but the fight comes first and so many walk about with truly broken hearts while carrying on doing what they can personally do while there is still time as Gandalf told Frodo. It is not ours to wonder why or complain.

An interesting point Brego! We all know that the Valar, Manwe in particular are said to be grieved by the ways of men. Yet, I do not think that they are solely to blame for that matter. The men of old can also be said to have a grief that, unlike their elder kindred the firstborn of Eru, they never saw the lights and wisdom of those who were before Ea, nor had their guidance, friendship and tutorage. Men came into being under the shadow of Morgoth and his emissaries it were that they met most likely before any other race. Thus many of their hearts became darkened even in their young days.

Yet can we really examine the grief between the powers and men when we know that what causes the Valar to grief is infact the gift of Eru to men, to live a short life and depart and that their hearts never rests on one feat but moves on and on. The Valar themselves do not clearly understand the purpose of men, all they know is that a place has been kept for them for what will Be after Ea. Yet in the halls of Ea, despite the plans of Eru, I would say that the grief of Men as a kindred is often overlooked. Even those of the three houses, friends to the Eldar, and sharers of their sorrow were never allowed sight of the Undying lands of those who govern Ea and live among the elves. 

Edited by Thorin

THE BEST Thorin, and you are so right, how hysterical, Thorin Oakenshield is the most awesome of names. Poor poor broken hearted hobbit movie goers.

I think there was , a great deal of people just wanted a place to talk about the surging emotions coming from the movie.

I think the book publishers might be broken hearted if the movie is less than stellar and the modern magic turns any one away from digging into the actual book.

What about Illuvatar, who created everything and everyone out of love and generosity. He meant all things for good and joy and beauty and had to watch everything turn from gold and silver to dark and hideous and see good trampled under evil for ages. How broken hearted he must have been.

That´s not true, Arwen had a choice and she choose the be counted among men, so she would be reunited with Aragon and with Luthien, I don´t know why she would have a broken heart, she got what she wanted (Beren) and then was happy. Melian would have a broken heart probably. IMHO there are people in ME who had a harder life than Luthien, but maybe I´m biased, couse I don´t think Luthien is that great at all, I know she is said to be the greatest.

Celebrian could have a broken heart too because of the loss of arwen and maybe even the twins and it was not even possible for her to see the wedding or meet her son in law and she is the only elven women who looses a child "forever" isn´t she? Idril has Earendil in Valinor, Nimloth has Elwing in Valinor too, so Melian and Celebrian are the only mothers who are separated from their children.

Marghana, welcome and any of you I don't know well or at all. Your words are kind.

When i read the painful story of Erendis and her so very deep love for Aldorion I got afraid. She was so kind and gentle and being that her life span was small compared to Tar Aldorion i began to wish with all my heart that he would just stop it and speak plainly to the girl and walk away from her, that she might grieve for the loss of even the hope of him and then perhaps marry well and happily. But he did not, and his sort of love for her turned sour so very quickly. Then he had dark thoughts and was unkind and even cruel to her. She of course was cold and mean spirited from her shame and grief. Such a brokeness in her. But the child of their unhappy union, little Ancalime, bereft of the father she loved dearly, then spirited away almost to live in a place devoid of men. Turning inward and receiving so much hurt from the cancer of bitterness and hate between her parents. On top of that the shepherd, actually one in line for the throne playing a trick on her and pretending to be a shepherd, shaming her in front of her lady servants and the men they married spiting her. It was awful. I could scarce breathe. If ever there was a need for the wisdom of Gandalf, Lady Galadriel, Lord Elrond and others that was it, but of course that was a different time and place. I remember being distressed for days and weeping for the girls.I was torn for Aldarion , I no longer respected him as husband and father, but he helped Cirdan immensely. He should have simply renounced his title to his father and left and went to live with Cirdan with some men who were single and then sailed the seas at will.

Brego wrote: Nerwen Im not sure why you think that Luthien did not have a hard life. Sure the first brief years were probably easy for her as a royal Elf Princess of the house of Thingol. (...) 

Your discussion with Nerwen aside for the moment, Luthien had very arguably lived for thousands of years before Beren arrived.

The Grey Annals notes that the time of her birth is not known, but adds that it was held to be in Valian Year 1200 'at the end of the first age of the Chaining of Melkor.' One can stress that it was unknown, but putting an actual date on this suggests at least a general time period. I mean...

... even if it's off by a thousand years! it was at least 2700 years (simplifying the math here) from Valian Year 1200 until Sun Year reckoning, and then hundreds of years until Beren showed up.

Nerwen wrote: I know Tolkien said that Luthien was the greatest elf, but did he maybe change his mind? Becouse in the Lotr appendics he said hat galadriel was the greatest of elven women, either that´s because Luthien left the circles of the world or he really did change his mind, for I take his statement more for general and not tied to some timeframe, except he says so of course. But then there is the quote from "Morgoths Ring" I believe where Luthien is said to be the greatest together with the greatest elves of Valinor (Feanor and Galadriel), alas I don´t know which statement was his last.

If you mean Galadriel greatest of Elven women from Appendix B, it appears that that was actually added by Tolkien to the second edition -- I'm going to guess for an edition published in 1965, based on one of my earlier paperbacks. In any case, according to author's note (note 14) to The Shibboleth of Feanor, The Peoples of Middle-Earth...

'These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,* were unfriends for ever.'

*Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.'

JRRT, 1968 or later

So in the arguably later description Galadriel and Feanor are noted as the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, and Luthien the greatest of all the Eldar.

A very late text (the adumbrated tale of Galadriel) compares Galadriel to Feanor again; Christopher Tolkien notes ('he' being JRRT): 'In this he emphasized the commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor, the equal if unlike endowments of Feanor' 

Brego wrote: Thanks for that Galin, I thought she was only a teenager..... I meant brief in the eyes of the immortals for whom she was considered young.  

Ah I see; so when you wrote...

'Sure the first brief years were probably easy for her as a royal Elf Princess of the house of Thingol. But everything after that is simply awful. She lived through the death...'

 ... which basically compares Luthien's years before she met Beren to her years after meeting Beren...

... well then I guess the years after she met Beren (the awful years) were notably brief, in the eyes of the immortals.

That is indeed very sad, poor forest, really and you are correct, what could they actually do except internalize their grief and turn it out again when someone came into their territory they felt was an enemy.

For me, poor Erendis and Aldorion's child Ancalime lived mostly broken and bitter lives. Erendis, because of h er almost painful love of Tar Aldorion who really didn't want her but did not want her to go to anyone else in case he changed his mind. And his almost contempt of his own country as it were, his own place, always wandering off from his father the ruler when he should have been preparing to take over. Because of his very great love for the sea it would have been better to pass the sceptre to the next in line, say goodbye to Erendis before she was destroyed and went and continued to assist Cirdan the Shipwright. And little Ancalime, who watched the enmity between father and mother and also endure years of separation from her father while he and the men who were the same as him had their adventures and gay times. She grew up never knowing males in her mother's household and then was tricked by a relative who pretended to be a shepherd. That turned out so ugly and he humiliated her publically in front of her own servants. Just dreadful Talk about broken hearts turning black and cruel. i still weep when i read it . A waste of precious lives, hopes and dreams.

i remember the first time our family watched The Fellowship.. When the part of Boromir giving in only momentarily to wrong reasoning came and his deep remorse and brokeness , we all wept openly. He was a good man, having had to fight the enemy on behalf of his kingdom and others all that time. All he wanted was peace and freedom from the enemy, to push back the second darkness once and for all. He mistakenly underestimated the power and scope of the Necromancer and what his thought and power put into a single ring honestly meant. Terrible. Such sorrow before he died.

In my opinion Boromir was the best description of Mankind. He has 2 sides, the good one always ready to fight for his folk, reliable, tender in love towards his brother and loyal to his father. On the other side was his pride of being a person of respect in his land, the shame of losing power despite all the effort given day after day, etc. I think he was noble but the pressure of his father's desires of power were stronger and hurt him deeply. How could he disagree with Denethor? He knew his father was wrong in many things but he kept fighting under his commands. Usually children behave to please their parents and once they "fail", the load of this unique disagreement is heavier than all the good actions already made. Boromir waited for his father congratulations all his life, but Denethor's heart was almost a stone. A broken family, 3 broken hearts.

I think there are many, especially in the Simarillon, like Tolkien used to called himself Beren (and his wife Luthien), that comes from one of the greatest love stories there. Also I think that Arwen's love story with Aragon is pretty sad, if you read the Appendix, you'll see that it is not so cheerful or happy for her. I think Eowyn finally finds some happiness at the end with Eomer.. or we hope she does!

A deep welcome Constanza, have you introduced yourself in the newcomers thread? I hope so,everyone will want to know you have come to us.

Very good points as well.

I have never been clear in my mind, no matter what has been written, no matter what has been spoken, about Aewoyn whom I identify with and love and whose avy I use. This is my problem.:

I know from experience that the constant and prolonged battering the mind and heart take from either abuse or trauma, especially the loss of loved ones by tragedy or abandonment , i know that this can so wound the heart and thinking, that even if suddenly peace and kindness, the loyal love of other's newly come sometimes simply cannot change the real heart and mind. I know that the wounded one is much like the survivor of a concentration camp in that when finally free the haunting terror never truly leaves, the lost ones are never truly let go of, so that the new genuine ones can never take the place of those lost nor bring true joy or evoke real love from the heart of the traumatized one.

I not only suffered this sort of thing, but in time made it my first occupation to work with the children, youth and adults sent to me who like me sufferered thest things. And i observed first hand that most of them, like me were living two lives, the one that haunted their days and terrorized their nights, and the one that, on the surface seemed happy and content, for they like me would never ever let on to the new that we were in fact suffering and for the most part incapaable of giving that first sort of love ever again nor able to receive and trust in such.  And for me, in my deepest heart, in view of what i have lived, i feel that Aeowyn, despite her wanting fame in the tradition of men, despite this, i feel she knew herself well and loved deeply and when mummy died, no one could take her place, when daddy died, no one at all could take his place, the same when cousin died. As for her uncle , he was not i the least in her mind daddy but uncle whom she looked up to as well as her ardent love for her brother. And so when Aragorn came into her life he fit absolutely in speech, valour, gentleness yet strength the one she waited for.  period, end of story. And when that was taken from her she died a special kind of death. And only he was able to bring her out of it. Being both king and priest he did so. And only because it would have deeply hurt him i believe did she accept healing and go on. She saw such good and valour in Faramir in my opinion and accepted his love. But i do not believe for a moment that she was ever in love with him. She treated him with deep courtesty and kindness and a love that was genuine but not the real thing because she had decided to go on. But I believe she only loved forever Aragorn and do not believe it was an illusion that she loved but all of him. So in my opinion she was always deep in the core of her grateful for her new life, but also broken hearted. period.

How very interesting your life is Marghana and I can't wait to here more from you.