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Did I really say quasi-Odo?

I must have taken the [i:1t77qerq]'strong'[/i:1t77qerq] pills!

There's nothing [i:1t77qerq]quasi[/i:1t77qerq] about me!

Wise Odo
Of course not !
That was just my wee play on your quasi-loremaster comment.
It seemed amusing.

Here's an obvious one; why are the eagles always kept till the last moment before entering the
fray, swooping in for the glory at the end ! Surely, much more use could have been made of them
during the events in both The Hobbit and LotR ? I know Gandalf used them on occasion but I would
have thought they'd have been very helpful in many ways. I wonder if it's because they held
themselves aloof from the toils of ME and only gave their aid when it suited them but did Tolkien
have other reasons ?

Hail !!
[quote="pettytyrant101":5ogp75sb]I think the Wise may have been caught with their pants down as it were on this one and were not being very Wise. after all still doesn't explain why the line of Isildur would have waited till Aragorn came along- if the Wise thought there was a chance of victory with just Men led by the heir, sensible thing would have been to do it years before when Sauron was not so strong surely? But I will defer to your greater wisdom and knowledge for now- well till GB or Eldo post <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />[/quote:5ogp75sb]

The Wise were sort of stuck on this point. Arnor fell apart relatively quickly, but while Gondor was playing Numenor Lite and was at the height of its power, there really wasn't that much evil that needed dealing with. Sauron was nowhere to be found and his servants were defeated and/or tributaries of Gondor. Gondor went through a long, slow decline though: first with the Kin-strife that killed many, then the Great Plague that killed more, then the Wainriders that killed even more, stole much of their territory, and almost ended the Line of the Kings.

Meanwhile, the remnants of Arnor were able to hold out against Angmar with help from the Elves (led by Cirdan and Elrond; of whom at least one was certainly counted among the Wise), but eventually they simply ran out of manpower. While, with the aid of Gondor, Angmar was destroyed; there just weren't enough people to keep the kingdom going, so they became the Rangers.

After the destruction of Angmar there were a few centuries of peace, but then the attacks continued. A long series of conflicts with orcs and Men (in the service of Sauron or otherwise) sapped the strength of the West. Most of the conflicts were victories for the West, else they would have been destroyed long before the War of the Ring, but they became continually weaker. By the time Sauron declared himself Gondor was almost at the end of its strength and they lacked the capacity to launch an offensive against him.

So, while Men were strong they were able to keep Middle-earth free from Sauron, but by the time Sauron returned Men were far weaker and they could do nothing but fight off the successive attacks against the kingdoms of the West. A military offensive was impossible, and of course the way they decided to strike against Sauron was through stealth. Also, there was a prophecy of sorts stating that the Shards of Narsil would not/should not be reforged till the Ring was found. Narsil was a very special sword (it seems to have had magical or pseudo-magical properties; among them shining), and that played a role in making Aragorn [i:5ogp75sb]the[/i:5ogp75sb] heir of Elendil to fight back.

Does that make any sense? :lol:
Oddly enough Eldorion I was just reading the section in the appendix covering the kin strife, plague, wainriders and you are quite right- Gondor was in no state to fight an offensive war and neither was the north- sound reasons.
Still doesn't explain why it took more than half a century for Gandalf to get nosey about the ring Bilbo found, given as you say there were plenty prophecies going about that the One Ring was due a re-appearance, I still think it would have been more wise of the Wise to check out any magic ring that turned up during this time period just to be sure.
I swear you guys are deliberately messing up my thread with arguments and facts and figures and book-learning. It's bullying of the worse kind!
Hi Hail Manwe- I may have a suggestion to explain the Eagles question but not got books to hand so have to do this from memory- although if I'm wrong on the facts I'm sure GB or Eldorion will sort it out and Wise Odo will point out that facts don't belong on his thread! So apologies in advance Wise Odo (but being Wise he'll understand- feel free to huff and puff as need be).
I think Gandalf in the West before his human form was associated with the same Valar the eagles are. Now generally speaking since the Downfall the Valar seem to have taken a hands off approach to ME and decided instead just to send emmisary's there in the form of the wizards. At Batttle of Five Armies, Isengard, the Battle at the Black Gate and the rescue of the ring-bearers there is a common denominator- Gandalf. My supposition is that the Giant Eagles as tools of the Valar stick to the non-interference policy except (as is a deities prerogative) when they decide not to- all of which seems to centre around Gandalf (including his "resurrection"Wink Smilie. Hope that sort of helps and awaiting others to correct where my memory fails me or to put forward and alternative explanation.
Sometimes I wonder if God is just playing games. His (...or [i:23k07ed7]Her[/i:23k07ed7], sorry GB!) ways are surely Mysterious. Sometimes He(or [i:23k07ed7]She[/i:23k07ed7]!) seems quite willful and inconsistent and petulant - like a child, really...

And maybe He ([i:23k07ed7]She[/i:23k07ed7]!) just liked Eagles!

And maybe He ([i:23k07ed7]She[/i:23k07ed7]!) just thought that Eagles being more involved would mean less story to write - the Eagles could have flown the Ring direct to Mount Doom! - and where would Tolkien's Epic be then?

Anyhow - get your intellectual baggage off my thread!
I sense it may be time to start a new thread (once I've worked out how and can a**ed) entitled "Stuff Wise Odo wouldn't like." Don't want to make him ill after all with all our thinking and rooting about for facts and the like. <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
See! Bullying of the worst kind!
I'll be running for Prime Minister next! :lol: (for non-brits check some British news for that to make sense!)

Don't need to.

We know you Brits are all big bullies!

You with your big once-shiny Empire!

Hey! We Australians became good Sports by standing up to bullies!

Don't think for a moment that I'll stand for it now!

(You big bully!)
Ahhh Empire, when a Brit could bully without the press thinking it was a bad thing- we gave the world railways, the post office, and police forces- ok there was some side issues about stomping all over peoples rights, stealing their land and having slaves- but c'mon- railways!
... and then there were the aqueducts - and public sanitation - and you could walk around at night without being mugged - no, that was the Romans, sorry!

Wise Odo
Tricky Wise Odo, tricky! I see your cunning plan, to bait me into responding often enough that people forget the fact filled debate that was bubbling along before hand. But I shall out wit you by going to bed! Ha!
Oh yes, you've seen right through me, Mr Tyrant! I admit defeat! Oh well, it was bound to happen sometime...

(Off to bed with you then... sleeeeeeeeep, my little pretty... Lullabye...lullabye...doo-doo-doo doo-do doo-doo... forget all those pesky books... Lullabye...lullabye... sweet dreams little Scotsman...)
[quote="pettytyrant101":2955ic9q]Still doesn't explain why it took more than half a century for Gandalf to get nosey about the ring Bilbo found, given as you say there were plenty prophecies going about that the One Ring was due a re-appearance, I still think it would have been more wise of the Wise to check out any magic ring that turned up during this time period just to be sure.[/quote:2955ic9q]

Fair enough, though that only really applies to Gandalf I think, not the rest of the Wise.

It's possible that Gandalf just assumed it was one of the lesser Rings and, not being as well-versed in Ring-lore as Saruman, simply let it drop. He does say in The Shadow of the Past that the Ring made him uncomfortable, but that "something always held [him] back" from talking to Saruman about it. Foresight, perhaps? I don't know.
I'd like to comment on the Eagles, it's an interesting question that seems to come up a lot. :mrgreen: Pettytyrant's point about the Eagles and non-intervention is certainly possible, though the Eagles were not Istari, and therefore might not have been bound by the same rules that Gandalf was. In any event, there were other reasons not to use the Eagles. I'd like to quote myself on the matter from a previous discussion on TORn since I can be somewhat wordy (noooooo!) and don't feel like typing it all out again. :P

[quote="Eldorion":j41nqk6m]The purpose of the Fellowship of the Ring, and the linchpin of the entire strategy decided on in Rivendell, was to destroy the Ring in a mission of [i:j41nqk6m]secrecy[/i:j41nqk6m].

Taking the Eagles might have worked, I will grant that. It may have been a successful mission and allowed the Ring to be destroyed earlier than it "actually" was. But it would have sacrificed secrecy and drastically increased the changes of the Ring being captured. When you have the fate of the world hanging in the balance, you don't want to take any unnecessary chances.

Eagles are, clearly, far more noticeable than Hobbits or other travelers on foot. We don't know how exactly Gandalf planned to get into Mordor (presumably it didn't involve the breaking of the Fellowship), but we can surmise that they would have gone through a mountain pass or valley some where. We know of only three (the Morannon, Cirith Ungol, and the Nameless Pass), but it stands to reason that there were more. Not ideal ones perhaps (though Cirith Ungol itself was not ideal), but mountains are not impenetrable and continuous walls of rock.

An Eagle flying through the air would be easily noticed by Orcs or other watchers (remember the sinister and sorcerous ones at the Tower of Cirith Ungol). Travelers on foot could sneak around much more easily, scout ahead (especially with a ranger), and slip by unnoticed (remember how quiet hobbits are?). The Eagles [i:j41nqk6m]might[/i:j41nqk6m] have been able to slip by unnoticed, but it would have been far more likely that they would have been caught. Once inside Mordor (if they even make it), there is still the chance that the Eagles could be caught. There's also the threat of the Nazgul's fell beasts, and archers.

The "classic" Eagle plan, as outlined in the YouTube video, would not work for a couple of reasons. First, the Ring could not just be dropped into the caldera; it had to be taken into the Crack of Doom itself. As the name implies, this is an enclosed space inside the mountain. An Eagles likely would not fit inside, so it would have to bring have a rider. This would limit the height to which it could fly (the rider would need to breathe) and its agility during a fight. Yet more possibilities for failure. Second, a giant Eagle landing on the slope of Mount Doom would be quickly evident to any troops stationed there. A small group of people on foot might be able to sneak up unnoticed. Again, the Eagle plan might work, but it increases the chances of being caught.

The Council of Elrond did not know exactly what to expect in Mordor, so they had to plan for the worst (i.e., assume the worst case scenario for each possible solution). The Fellowship plan was itself a very long shot and indeed, it failed in its original conception, though obviously a fragment of the Fellowship persisted; but the Eagle plan raises such a host of potential issues and problems that I think it is quite understandable why the Council opted to send people on foot. As I mentioned at the beginning, their emphasis was on [i:j41nqk6m]secrecy[/i:j41nqk6m].

(This of course assumes that the Eagles, were they asked, would consent to fly the Ringbearer/Fellowship to Mount Doom.) [/quote:j41nqk6m]

Note: the YouTube video mentioned in the quoted passage is, as I'm sure many of you have guessed, the (in)famous [url=]How It Should Have Ended[/url:j41nqk6m] clip.

Note 2: The Nameless Pass is mentioned in [i:j41nqk6m]The Two Towers[/i:j41nqk6m], chapter "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol".
[quote:j41nqk6m]Here the huge cliff-face sloped backwards, and the path like a snake wound to and fro across it. At one point point it crawled sideways right to the edge of the dark chasm, and Frodo glancing down saw below him as a vast deep pit the great ravine at the head of the Morgul Valley. Down in its depths glimmered like a glow-worm thread the wraith-road from the dead-city to the Nameless Pass. He turned hastily away.[/quote:j41nqk6m]
An eagle flying at forty thousand feet would hardly be noticed until it was too late, Eldo! Maybe it was just that Gandalf didn't think to ask.


[i:2iey76dz]Go to sleep, go to sleep,
Go to sleep little Eldo!
Go to sleep, go to sleep,
Dah-da dahdah daah dah...[/i:2iey76dz]

Wise Odo
I'm sure someone riding on an Eagle would just [i:r0forp4y]love[/i:r0forp4y] being up there at 40,000 feet with no shelter (or oxygen). <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
My intuition is this, Eldo: eagles are [i:1geaofmc]huge [/i:1geaofmc]in Middle-earth, monumental in their bigness, like Airbuses compared to Swallows (African), and if so, their lungs would be proportionally huge. An Eagle could hold his breath for a very long time, what with huge lungs like that. Also there is still some air - thin as it is - high on up. There would be enough to supplement what's already stored in those huge lungs. And remember that in Middle-earth, the air is good and sweet and thick at a much higher height than in the modern world, what with Climate Warming and other environmental matters nowadays [i:1geaofmc]thinning[/i:1geaofmc] everything up there and what not. And being so huge, and bulked up with fat, the eagles could have survived the cold on high quite comfortably (today they'd have overheated, apparently).

If an Eagle could carry Gandalf from Orthanc to wherever (I remember reading somewhere they nicknamed him Fatwiz at Hogwarts) that eagle could surely carry Frodo with ease (probably even that, quote, "stupid fat Hobbit" unquote).

And that Airbus-sized eagle would logically fly at Airbus-sized speed, so it would only take about fifteen minutes to fly from Hobbiton to Mount Doom - in my estimation at least (admittedly, Mathematics is not my forte).

As to Frodo (and Sam?) being able to breathe up there - well, surely Gandalf could have given him (them) a potion of some kind, having surely at some stage [i:1geaofmc]taught[/i:1geaofmc] Potions Class. Don't forget our wizard was known by many names! Think about it! Does the name [i:1geaofmc]Dumbledore[/i:1geaofmc] ring any bells? (Anyone with half a brain knows who Dumbledore [i:1geaofmc]really [/i:1geaofmc]was!)

I hope I haven't been too scientific for you, Eldo, but I know you like lots of facts in your debates. If you doubt any of my science, Halfwise will back me up, him being a Physicist and all. (I might say, it's nice to know Physics has some use - even in Middle-earth).

Yaaaaaawwwwwn! Oh excuse me, Eldo! I don't mean to yawn... Hey! Isn't it about [i:1geaofmc]that [/i:1geaofmc]time anyway ... Oh will you just look at the time - and I'm sure you've got plenty of study to do tomorrow...
I'm unsure if you're just being facetious or if you're really serious. And as a matter of fact I do have studying to do; how'd you know? :lol:

While an Eagle could theoretically fly at 40,000 feet, I highly doubt that a rider could, even with hypothetical "potions". :P And it would need a rider, to get into the Crack of Doom (remember how huge Eagles are? :mrgreen: ).

Airbus-sized and -speed Eagles would be cool though. <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
Volcanoes have holes in the top, don't they? In books at least - perhaps not movies though... And I wonder if riding an eagle would be anything like riding a kangaroo? I think you're right, it could be fun! 8-) And, yes, you might be right about the strength of those particular potions, as Hogwarts stuff doesn't seem [i:253cdaau]that [/i:253cdaau]strong. :twisted:
They do have holes in the top, but the Ring needed to be brought to the Crack itself, the place where it had been made and Sauron's powers were strongest (ROTK, Mount Doom).
Ah! A compartmentalized volcano! And me thinking it was just a tunnel delved into the mountainside so the evil folk could reach the hot lava within! Perhaps I should read more! :ugeek:
On the point of the eagles I am going to have to ask others to do a bit of digging for me due the lamentable non existence of a copy of Silmarillion in my household at the moment. But I think the eagles somewhere are described as being the personal emissaries of Manwe (that's bit I need checking) and that Manwe was also one of the main voices supporting the inclusion of Gandalf in the emissaries to be sent to ME (the other bit I need checking). The connection I was (tentatively) making was that Manwe had a personal investment in Gandalf and so used his own emissaries, the eagles, to help him out when things seemed at their worst, but being one of the Valar Manwe was under same general rule as the rest of the Valar not to directly interfere- perhaps the fact the eagles existed within the confines of the world solely was a sort of Valar loophole that got round the non-interference policy but that Manwe felt should not be abused. there is also the fact the eagles seem to be quite reluctant to get involved or do more than they are specifically asked- when Gandalf is rescued from Isengard Gwahair (excuse spelling I don't have book to hand) tells Gandalf "I was sent to bear tidings not burdens." Which always struck me as either grumpy or pedantic.
Thanks pettytrant. That's sort of what i'm getting at. Gandalf was sent by Manwe and seems to have had
more 'help' on the way (Cirdans ring, the eagles, resurrection even) !!
Whereas Saruman seems to have got all his breaks by his own work !
And yes,The eagle's do seem a little 'crabbit' (another good scots word) when dealing with anyone don't they ?
Perhaps they were asked and just didn't want to take the ring. I suppose even an eagle could have been
corrupted by it ! Then we really would have had trouble !

Thanks also Wise Odo

Hail !!
Just to add with regards to the eagles just dropping the ring in the top of the volcano- I'm no aviation expert but I would imagine the thermal currents above an active volcano would, even in bird language, be defined with the word "tricky" not to mention the very good chance the fumes would be poisonous. Some accuracy would be needed to drop it in- what if it went down the side or landed on the ledge Frodo ends up on? And whilst the eagles might have a chance against the steeds of the Nazgul I'm not so certain they would have faired so well against the Nazgul themselves. But overall I stick by my earlier reasoning- it was a Valar thing and all gods it seems believe its better for mere mortals to suffer and learn than just to be helped out from the start.
I hang glide, so can confirm that even some non-volcanic thermals can make you feel like you're being shot at by cannon fire. But eagles could tuck their wings, dive in and pull it off, I'm sure. Or waddle into the Crack of Doom.

I feel your second point about divinity (and authors!) wanting mortals to go through some meaningful suffering to get their just rewards is the real reason to not use the eagles. The whole thing could have been wrapped up in one book. I'm sure Tolkien must have been tempted during some of the late night revisions!
Oh you guys, what with your [i:2qvsu2bx]thoughts[/i:2qvsu2bx] and [i:2qvsu2bx]views[/i:2qvsu2bx] and [i:2qvsu2bx]ideas[/i:2qvsu2bx]! Delicious! I'm only sad that I'm too busy with things in the Real World at the moment to spend time just now visiting your Little World of Wonderful Whimsy!

Wise Odo

NB Thank you Halfwise for explaining the finer points of Ring-bombing. Have none of these 'book-readers' read the [i:2qvsu2bx]Dam Busters[/i:2qvsu2bx], pray tell? I knew you'd come though for me. But, dear Halfwise, you know as well as I do that the Great Eagles never [i:2qvsu2bx]waddle[/i:2qvsu2bx]; the Lesser Eagles, yes, but [i:2qvsu2bx]never [/i:2qvsu2bx]the Great Eagles! (And you know it, you trickster!)

NB Hail Manwe, you must supply the meaning of [i:2qvsu2bx]"crabbit"[/i:2qvsu2bx] (I'm too busy just now to intuit it). It is exactly the kind of word I would use. My waters, though slightly muddy, tell me as much! I should hate to use it incorrectly and thus annoy the Scots. (You know how I hate annoying people - even you wee Scots!)

NB I'm head down bum up and will return presently!
[quote:fztn3dnh]But, dear Halfwise, you know as well as I do that the Great Eagles never waddle; the Lesser Eagles, yes, but never the Great Eagles![/quote:fztn3dnh]

No indeed! They strutted majestically with gleaming eye and stately, wagging tuckus!
Ah! You make me think of Coleridge and those immortal lines:

[i:3kj8l97y]We flew high on the winged wind,
O'er clouds of broiling broily whiteness,
While below lay Man and very Sin,
Alack the lack of good old rightness!

Down flew we bathed in resplendent sunshine,
Oh Great And Glorious wings with wagging tuckus,
We were soaring and erring on the fun-side,
While Evil Men on Earth did try and duck us!

Still brings a tear to my eye, old son, even now when I've grown old and cynical. Tradesmen (especially electricians) would often sing the words on building sites. Perhaps it's just coincidence, Halfwise, that you mention it, but the Religious might call this "part of God's Great Design," and the Scotsman Taoist, "a wee spot of silly-wisdom." The bottom line: you have moved me!
Hail !! Wise Odo.

I am sure you will love this word :

Crabbit; Grumpy - Grouchy - Angry - Cross - put out -Of foul mood, are just sum of it's meanings !
Uses include 'she's a crabbit old cow' - for a mean aunty / bad tempered neighbour.
'he's a crabbit wee bugger' - for a crying child / moody teenager.

"I'm crabbit because it's raining"! Is commonly heard.

Very useful.

Hail !!
Ah! I remember it now. What coincidences abound today! Coleridge again, I think!

No - sorry - it was Burns! Never mind....

[i:udytn62j]I were once out in the forest huntin' rabbit,
When the Scottish rain (as is it's pesky habit),
Poured off the shoots,
Down in my boots,
And home I went just that wee bit crabbit!

Wise Odo
A boy stood on the burning deck, having a game of cricket......................
Steady, young lad - steady!

Wise Odo
Just to add to Hail Manwe's definition of "crabbit" I would add to it the connotation the word has of physicality, implied within it is a sense of someone so sour and miserable their face is twisted and screwed up, so when someone is described as crabbit the image it should conjure is a face of this type, so grumpy its written on their face for all to see.
Odo, your poetry has brought tears to my eyes, and not of the crabbit variety...quite the opposite!
Sorry I haven't been able to participate in the discussions the last few days. Mum has been sick, and I've been keeping her company in hospital.

Briefly, I particularly enjoyed the Eagle discussion. I love that Youtube video Eldo posted. It's been one of my faves since I discovered it a year or so ago.

How It Should Have Ended is brilliant. I love their Star Wars one too. :mrgreen:
Star Wars, the last time I looked, was [i:832ez8nb][size=200:832ez8nb]SCIENCE FICTION[/size:832ez8nb][/i:832ez8nb] :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:
Yeah.... Why do you mention it? :roll:
Oh dear Eldo what insouciance you display. Okay I'll help.

This thread is called [color=#FF0000:384e1ouw]"ODO."[/color:384e1ouw]

There is another: [color=#BF0000:384e1ouw]"SCIENCE FICTION."[/color:384e1ouw]

If you have any further problems, I'm happy to send a diagram! :x

Wise Odo
Well you are certainly getting the hang of it Odo- that was very crabbit of you!
[size=150:299yck5k][color=#FF0000:299yck5k]Darn tootin'![/color:299yck5k][/size:299yck5k]

Wise Odo

I'm now wondering what the Scottish for [i:299yck5k]darn tootin'[/i:299yck5k] is? Have you got another wonderful expression, Mr Tyrant?
Dear Wise Odo, it troubles me what a lot of folk are saying on a certain other thread. Apparently, a lot of people (obviously not Tolkien fans just Johnny-come-lately types, to judge from their Liberal attitudes) think The Hobbit should include things like the White Council. Not only that, they're saying the songs should be taken out (some don't actually say it, but imply it nonetheless) because supposedly the movie should be more serious throughout (LotRized or something). Oh yes, they also say the 'tone' of The Hobbit is more serious late in the book than it is earlier in the book?

Wise Odo, what do you think should be done about these kind of people?

with kindest regards,
Odo Banks
I don't think 'anything' should be [i:1bzodb2x]done [/i:1bzodb2x]as such about these kind of people, Mr Banks. They clearly (in a Tolkien sense) miss the mark completely, and should be pitied, poor souls. Remember in the original Greek 'Sin' means something akin to 'missing the mark.' They merely shoot bent arrows...

You know, I am minded of a verse from Longfellow's great epic: "The Slaying of the Silly People."

(From Canto CXXXIV):

Oh we hear their chatter!
But it does not matter,
Their deep wisdom akin
To a fart in the wind..."

The secret is to tolerate these kind of people, Mr Banks, while gently stroking their tuckusses (so to speak). You and I must be Forbearing Guides, leading these misguided folk on the narrow path to Wisdom. Hey! They bury themselves in books and think themselves wise. :roll:

Wise Odo

I must say, Mr Banks, you sound both wise and good looking; a true seeker of Wisdom in all it's Handsomeness; a very fine hobbit indeed! <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />
How very Smeagol of you, O' Wisest of Oracles! :P :lol:

I'm still trying to think of a suitable Scots version of darn tootin' let alone a response to the rest- however it did put me in mind of a Scottish football story, and knowing how you Ozzies like your sport Odo, you may be amused. There was a goal keeper by the name of Andy Goram, a good goalkeeper and was Scotlands goalkeeper. He bravely one day announced to the press that he suffered from a mental illness, and wishing that the subject be more often spoken about and in the public eye he confessed to being a schizophrenic. And how did his own fans respond to this act of courage upon match day? With 45,000 of them chanting the refrain "There are only two Andy Gorams."
I wonder how many Odo's there are?
Well, if you count his presence in Star TrekBig Smile SmilieS9 and in the Harry Potter books, that makes 4 so far <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

Dear Wise Odo,

You'll probably know these two rabblerousers above. They cause all sorts of grief and trouble on other threads (quite uncontrolled kinds of people as you know), and now we are presented with some of their resentful nasty kind of talk when we only engaged each other in sensible, dare I say, [i:3s35wj6m]respectable [/i:3s35wj6m]conversation. Fancy suggesting that you and I are peas in a pod! I am of course, not offended by the notion, but I do feel nonetheless they are twisting the idea to negative purpose, and what I find most offensive is that they're shooting with bent arrows.

I am keen to hear your thoughts on this.

yours with utmost respect and filial devotion,
Odo Banks
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