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I wouldn't use the words "pop gun" and "akward", petty, just because they're anachronoical(?)
"pop-gun" I was uncertain about myself Tin, more though because the idea of guns of any sort and ME seems odd to me.
I personally don't see a problem with "awkward" but what do others think?
I have not one iota of a problem with "awkward". Indeed, I think it is exactly what works. Bilbo is a middle-class respectable person and here Tolkien is having a nod and a wink at respectableness. It also suggests something of Bilbo's personality and social situation.

Removing tobacco, I guess, is PC at its mildest. Indeed the tobacco reference is not needed as it might very well be a distraction for the viewer... "Tobacco? Ooh I wonder if that should be in there, or not? What's that? What did Gandalf say? I was distracted thinking about the use of the word tobacco?" ...Your version does not change the meaning at all, but might remove quibbles, Mr Tyrant.

Your truncating of Bilbo's 'gushing" speech about his memories of Gandalf does not immediately offend, Mr Tyrant . What you left seems good though. (Would have to look at original to see if any magic has been sandpapered off - not now though - I'm busy posting!

Pop-gun? Why not? A pop-gun is a cork in a tube that pops out under the pressure of air. If you can have fireworks, you can have a pop-gun, surely. I wonder what the original meaning of 'gun' was? It doesn't bother me, anyway. The Hobbit is full of apparent anachronisms, which aren't anachronisms because this is the Middle-earth period of history. Postal services, water mills, swords and armour, fireworks, middle-classes, windows, wardrobes (whole rooms devoted to clothes), tobacco, the well-to-do and the morally respectable....:- what Century of our own known history does it sound most like? Sixteenth century eighteen hundreds twelth century? "Twere a topsy turvey age, it twere!" Pop-gun? Change it to some other witty "period" phrase, but what historical "period" is appropriate?

I like the shadow idea better too.

I'll read your Scene again, Mr Tyrant, when I'm awake and have The Hobbit before me. Sounds okay at this stage!

[size=150:n2pfmigt][b:n2pfmigt]Anyone else??[/b:n2pfmigt][/size:n2pfmigt](Let's get it [i:n2pfmigt]exactly [/i:n2pfmigt]right! Let's not be hasty before moving on!)
Hail !! Pettytyrant !

[quote="pettytyrant101":2jprpm46]And some cuts from Blbo's longer speech where he remembers who Gandalf is, [/quote:2jprpm46]

I don't understand the reason for shortening this ? Is it sooo long ? Granted it's perhaps 'rambly!!' but Imo this is a good chance to show Bilbo saying the things he remembers about Gandalf while expressing on his face the occasional 'tookish' side and back to his normal, respectable self. Sort of like Holm does in the FotrR when he goes on about leaving the shire.
(perhaps less dramatically ??)
... however, i'm sure you mentioned establishing this earlier during the tour of Bilbo's house (looking at the map). Was that done ?

And surely we can imagine Ian Mckellan saying 'To think I should have lived to be good-morninged by Belladonna Took's son, as if I was selling buttons at the door !'
and '....poor Belladonna'. Why not ?

I am sure you will have perfectly good reasons which I just may not be grasping but i'd like to, if you'll kindly indulge.
would you mind explaining briefly the reasons for changes/ommissions as you go along ? That way, if they are things to do with filming or such, I'll know not to interrupt !

Many thanks <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
With regards Bilbos speech it was purely for length- I thought for cinema and pacing it was a sentence or two short- and there is a lne about the Tooks magic fastening diamond studs that I agonized over cutting but decided in the end the line associating fireworks with the Old Took and Gnadalf covered the same ground as far as information was concerned.

Ignore the change to the Belladonna line- I'd forgotten Gandalf refrences her in the line you quote so its not a problem. My bad! :oops:

Not sure if Odo approved the map idea or not actually- there is one described in the book- a large one in the hall with all Bilbo's favourite walks marked on it in red.

Your probably right about the pop-gun thing Odo- I had thought to replace it with a cork popping from the bottle image but it's maybe not necessary.
Thanks for that Pettytyrant.
You're getting me excited about all this !!! <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
I agree with you Hail. Do the whole speech. It shows Bilbo's personality and his forgetting-his-respectable-self for a moment in his gush of thoughts! Also, if we shorten it, it's less of a gush, more a spurt.

[i:ubl2jgaa]Pop-gun[/i:ubl2jgaa] was in the narrative anyway, wasn't it? The door won't 'sound' like a pop-gun when it is opened, it will just be opened abruptly, that was the point being made. :? If it is said by anyone, "pop-gun" would be fine, I feel. (Hard to imagine the LotR movies door opening like a pop-gun! Bit heavy!)

The Map would only show the Shire, so why not? (Only fans will pay a lot of attention to it anyway).

[b:ubl2jgaa][i:ubl2jgaa]So what do we have? [/i:ubl2jgaa][/b:ubl2jgaa] Enough to move on? Or do we put our Intro scene down now in proper script form? (Mmm...How are scripts laid out?)
We can I'm sure come to a consensus on the speech- I feel that it is a little too long for that point in the film, we need to be creating momentum right from the off and that's why I shortened it, there was nothing about the lines in particular I cut that made me choose them save that I thought they repeated information or well a little too archaic in structure. The Old Tooks magic studs are fine but given FoTR the film I felt the association with fireworks was more important. Those are the reasons not a defence of it- if the general feeling is to keep the whole speech that's fine.

All of the dialogue, including pop-gun is from the book, all I've done is drop the odd word and created a few one word responses for Bilbo taken from what it says in the book that he's thinking at the time.

I'd say Odo 'pop-gun' refers solely to the speed Bilbo pulls open the door, not any popping sound the door makes.

Does the 'salad' joke work ok for everyone, in the book Bombur just says "mince pie and salad" but given modern fads with diets and obesity it seemed too good an opportunity not to make it into a small joke at Bombur's expense.
Sorry, really not my kind of thing... the feel and slant of Tolkien's humour is good for me and I hope we will try to mimic the professor's approach, and not try to [i:30cenjwu]modernize[/i:30cenjwu] too much! Sorry - not trying to offend here! Tolkien's humour is ageless to me. (eegad... [i:30cenjwu]modernizing[/i:30cenjwu].... makes me shiver......) I'm sure Odo agrees with me on this. Indeed, I forgot for a moment who I was! :shock: (I'm Wisey, aren't I? :? )
I wasn't sure myself Wise Odo which was why I asked and you've voiced my own doubt about it- but it did seem so obvious as to be hard not to use it. It doesn't change what Tolkien wrote though, merely puts in a comedy pause between the two words.
Anyone else got a view? If it is felt that its not in keeping with the right humour then its easily dumped.
Sorry, going back to the whole akward line...
I guess i find it (hah!) akward is because of how it is used today among my generation. It's kind of used as a very popular adjective, though used very lightly. Because of its use NOW, I find it anachronic in the HObbit
would we be cutting away to Bilbo's (increasingly worried ?) reaction to each request from each dwarf for different foods ?
If so, theres an easy 'large person' joke right there ready made if you want it anyway! A raised eyebrow at the word salad
would do.
I would tend to resist any attempts to modernize the language or pander to a prosepective 'modern' audience. Middle-earth is a 'history' piece essentially. It's old fashionedness, if I might put it that way, is an inherent part of the joy of the book. Words like 'awkward' may have a number of meanings, but it still has the one Tolkien meant. If it bothers anyone, they might need to look it up to see what Tolkien meant, or adapt to whatever ambiguity or plain hilariousness the 'modern' word might conjure up n a Hobbit context. Btw what does 'awkward' mean in your circle,Tin? I'm curious.

As to this salad question, I just dn't think we need the joke. Big Fat Bombur is the joke. Looking ahead, he falls on top of Thorin in the entry-hall, doesn't he? What are we saying? Bombur is fat, let's make fat jokes - uneeded ones?! The joke with Thorin is a good visual one, why overplay it? If it looks like a funny home video, a real blooper that happened, all the better - for that is what it was. I could realy imagine it - like watching someone trip over the cat (with no harm done!) Let's not do what I think of as the American sitcom-thing and spell out the jokes to our allegedly 'dumb' audience. Audiences are more savvy than people give them credit for. Little hints at modern dietary fashions is just unneeded. Pleeeeassse don't be Topical. GB and his Archetypes will serve us better than any drive to 'modernize.' Remember, Tolkien had a very artful eye when it came to humour.

I think The Hobbit is one of the funniest (and most thrilling) books ever! Let's trust him and only make necessary change or subcreate using his methods! It is a method that will work on screen as readily as in the book.

Yes, we need to thrash this out now. DISCUSS!!!!
For my tuppence i've no problem with 'awkward' nor 'pop-gun'!

As for the joke, i'd do without. It's in your head from the off that Bomburs fat !.. and funny !! as you say Odo.

(I must say i'm having trouble seeing anyone other than Holm here, I do hope someone worthy will be found.)
Ok so we lose the pause between pork pie and salad and let the audience make its own jokes up- fair enough.

I was rather curious myself Odo as to the context these' youths' use the word 'awkward' in. I am somewhere between intrigued and feeling old on the matter!

I exaggerated slightly Odo the Bombur falling on everyone, I put him at the back and made him teeter a bit before falling- I asume from your last post there's no problem with that- in which case a quick edit of the salad line is all we need and we have a draft for the opening to the party scene under our belts. :P

As to the preceding scene I vote for including the map in the hall- the dialogue is up for negotiation though- and we go with Gandalf's shadow falling over the sunny doorstep and Bilbo as Gandalf's introduction. And I'd have Bilbo collect his mail from behind the mantelpiece clock before he goes out.
If we can agree on these points- or finish debating them- we can get the opening written up too before we go any further.

So who wants a go at drafting the next half of the party scene?
(someone's standing funny)

basically, the term is way to overused, and its meaning is slowly being warped
Sorry Tin- I don't see it as a good enough reason to change the word from the original text.
If that thinking was applied in the 80's then everything written pre 80's would have to have the word 'heavy' changed, as it too was a popular 'youth' word whose meaning was subverted and was most definitely overused. But if you were a scriptwriter in the 80's adapting an older book and it had the line "That boulder is heavy" you wouldn't change the word heavy because some teenagers use it a lot with a different meaning would you? So I don't think we should either- teenage terms tend to alter generation to generation or come round in cycles anyway.
Your meaning is surprisingly (and unsurprisingly) pretty much the same as Tolkien's, dear Tin! <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' /> Awkwardness can be physical, as in someone being un-co (either permanetly or temporarily), but it can also lead on to being slightly embarrassing for the un-co one, if only they knew, or in your case, for [i:3p4cdclj]you[/i:3p4cdclj] because [i:3p4cdclj]you're[/i:3p4cdclj] embarrassed for [i:3p4cdclj]your [/i:3p4cdclj]friend, or embarrassed, for the nonce, that you [i:3p4cdclj]are[/i:3p4cdclj] his/her friend! You may just think the person is an embarrasment, whether he/she is your friend or not! Indeed, we can discuss the permutations of 'awkward' all day - so long as we see it as in some way embarrassing to someone (individually or socially), we've pretty much used it correctly, I s'pose. Tolkien is as 'modern' in this sense as we are, for his humour on social propriety is timeless. Human beings have always had ideas of 'respectability', and I should know, as I'm about the only truly [i:3p4cdclj]respectable[/i:3p4cdclj] Hobbit on this forum! Imagine how awkward that is for me! If only only my friends knew I was hob-nobbing on such Vulgar Threads!!! :x
We were posting at the same time, Mr Tyrant!! Now, that's 'awkward'! :oops:
ok, sorry :oops: :oops:
And I don't know if this has already been discussed, but in Unfinished Tales it explains why (and how) Gandalf came across Thorin and his quest. Should we put that in as prolouge?
No - I don't believe we should. I hope you don't mind me saying so, Tin - or else it might start getting a bit [i:1ah70bp6]awkward[/i:1ah70bp6] between us... <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> (Oh you can always rely on a Banks to beat a dog to death :lol: ---- metaphorically speaking! :? )
No apology Tin- how else would us old fogies even learn of such subtle changes of a words usage without you here to point it out.
On your Unfinished Tales point, and Eldo might be the one to ask about this I seem to remember him posting something on it elsewhere- that the film rights only cover the one book- to include UT material you would also need the rights to UT- given MGM's digging down the back of its corporate sofa about now looking for loose change I can't see them shelling out for more rights.

Awkwardness suddenly abounds Odo simultaneous posts again!
Oh Lawdy! I've had one of my Absolutely Brilliant (but Humble) Ideas!

How about writing an Intro Scene. We forumers will discuss, edit and approve, and then we can post it on its own proper script thread. GB can be enlisted to remove any posts on our [i:462pzx5m]Official Forum Script Thread [/i:462pzx5m]that are not Approved Script- so it can always be read as a continuous and proper Script without distractions. This way we might chip our way through our script - and never get ahead of ourselves. (If PJ sends cheques, I'll keep them safe! <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' /> )

What think you? (ALL of you!)


NB If someone knows how a Proper Script is set out - can you post a LITTLE bit of a starting section as a guide for us.
... and AGAIN! :o

Maybe we should call this THE AWKWARD THREAD? :lol:

(I feel we ALL know what Tolkien meant now. It gets funnier the more I think about it!)
Good idea Odo.
I've read quite a few scripts, from tv to radio to film to stage and quite frankly, depsite what you might hear, there is no official format. Its seems to change scriptwriter ot scriptwriter and year to year.
It's also usual to have several different types of script- for what we are doing all we need are actions and dialogue really. Basic camera moves are occasionally described (pans and the like) but its not usual to list every shot, such as 'cuts to Bilbo, close up, cuts to Gandalf mid-shot' for every dialogue scene. That stuff is usually worked out later from the main script and done separately.

... are you prepared to start...? Intro shots (including only the [i:utuwfizn]necessary[/i:utuwfizn] 'pan' shots!) Say - up to Bilbo going out for a smoke....? (Let's be incremental here. No BIG chunks).

Well I was considering bed but dammit this is TH.
So what did we decide on already? Are we keeping the map? Are we having the mantlepiece clock show the day as well as the time or just the time?
I assume we are already agreed on Gandalf's shadow bit. Yes?
Why don't you put something together Odo and everyone can give you their comments and suggestions and we'll see what we can collectively thrash out?
Well, I would rather pooh-pooh your ideas, than you mine! :?

Well, let's quibble a bit. I say: let's have the clock - but not the day. Don't know we need have the day. He can invite Gandalf to tea indicating whatever day he indicates(I haven't got book here just this minute). Mail - unopened - beind clock? Yep, I like it. Shire Map on wall above clock? Yep. Let's go with shadow - maybe he has come through gate while Bilbo is staring out over The Water, puffing at his pipe? Maybe we don't need a front fence? Sixty years ago? Fence might not have been there. Seat was, though - clearly it must have been there!

Camera comes in over Hobbiton. Show The Water, The Mill, fly on up to The Hill (show tree on side of The Hill - not close-up, just there in overall shot!) Then up The Hill to show Bagshot Row and on up to and into Biilbo's front door. Camera explores rooms (doors open as we go?) See the pantries, see the whole rooms devoted to clothes, show something cooking on the stove, go to Bilbo, at last, fussing with the dusting. Once we find Bilbo he dusts a couple on things, moves onto mantle shelf. Dusts clock. Puts duster down, uses hankerchief to mop brow, and then takes mail and pipe(?) Pops outside.

There! A rudimentary INTRO SCENE. We see the Middle-class bachelor chap in his environment. I feel like I know him already - with NO exposition yet. (Exposition? Who needs it? Who even knows what exposition is! :? ) Sound all right? If so, I'll turn above into a Start Script of sorts?

VOTES, PLEASE! IDEAS, PLEASE! Let's not be hasty. Feedback required. (Film is in limbo - we have plenty of time to get it right!)
The reason for the day on the clock is because the book jumps 24 hours- it was just for the transition. When Bilbo is dusting round it at start the viewer can see its Tuesday. And we can begin the arrivals for the party scene by starting on the clock indicating its now Wednesday.
What about a calendar on the mantleshelf, wih days crossed off? The day on a clock makes me think digital for some reason, Mr Tyrant. If so, that would be anachronistic beyond belief, wouldn't it? :lol:
LOl- digital would be a bit far yes!!! I was thinking more the sort that run on clockwork and are a series of flip cards- a calendar with days crossed off would be fine though.
I feel during this intro scene there should be a voice over, saying those famous first lines, "in a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit"
And reverting back to UT, in Two Towers (as well as the other movies, but this one stands out the most to me) they have that whole bit about Theodred (sry fr spelling) that, I believe, was NOT in TT, but in UT. Arguably then, couldn't it be said that a) PJ used more material than he was supposed to, or b) He had more rights than just to the trilogy. I think that the formal is what actually happened, but...
[quote="Tinuviel":1amiejky]I feel during this intro scene there should be a voice over, saying those famous first lines, "in a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit"[/quote:1amiejky]

Okay - what does everyone else think??? I like the idea but now wonder if we do need it, Tin. I'm confused now... see = :?

[quote="Tinuviel":1amiejky]And reverting back to UT, in Two Towers (as well as the other movies, but this one stands out the most to me) they have that whole bit about Theodred (sry fr spelling) that, I believe, was NOT in TT, but in UT. Arguably then, couldn't it be said that a) PJ used more material than he was supposed to, or b) He had more rights than just to the trilogy. I think that the formal is what actually happened, but...[/quote:1amiejky]

...and now I'm really confused, Tin .... see: = :? :? (What are you actually getting at here?)
Well, what I"m saying is, ummmmmmmm......
i guess something relatively irrelevant? But I was wondering if PJ got in any kind of trouble for using the Theodred bit in TT because the info on that was in a different book?
On the first matter, I just think having Bilbo narrating the first couple paragraph from the book while the intro is occuring (a GREAT opening scene btw, perfect for opening credits!) Kind of like in FOTR. Or, if not, then we can put those opening words in the trailers/movie posters. I'm pretty good on the whole filmaking part, so any questions regarding technique or what not, please ask :ugeek:
The more I think about it the more I think maybe we should not bother with the voiceover, Tin. But using it in a trailer - yep that sounds veeeery interesting! :geek:

So we have your vote for or opening shots? Thanks Tin. Does anyone else have suggestions before I put that first liddle bit in for consideration?
I LIKE the voice-over idea for the opening paragraphs.

I thought we were still keeping the voice over Odo? I like it so long as its only the opening and it can easily go over the opening shots of the Shire right up to the point where we see Bilbo being domestic.
If we are keeping it though we will have to decide whose voice it is? Is it Ian Holm reading as old Bilbo as he sets down his book? Is it Sam,keeper of the red book, readingto his children? It could feasibly even be Frodo or Gandalf. Or none of the above- just the voice of a narrator? (Maybe even an impersonation of Tolkien himself?)

What Tin is refering to Odo in UT is the bit where Gandalf describes how he set up the meeting at Bilbo's. Theres a conversation with Thorin and some other stuff if memory serves- I don't have it to hand at mo- its got some good stuff but I don't think we need it. Ill have a rewad of it again later just to double check.
Yes, I was under the impression we were having a voiceover during the shire overview, as Pettytyrant says.. up to the point where we see Bilbo doing his housework ?
In any event i'm sure we'll have to have someone saying ' In a hole in the ground...'! I think this should begin just when we start 'homing in' on Bilbo's door ??
The calender on the mantle with days crossed off, hmm - not sure about that ! the current day displayed works fine for me. <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />

A small wooden holder with 'flipover cards' at the base of the clock or beside (or built in ?) would fit ! <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />
[quote="pettytyrant101":2ll6ma5c]If we are keeping it though we will have to decide whose voice it is?[/quote:2ll6ma5c]

....And I would vote for Sam. 8-)
I think if we have a voiceover we should have Sam do it. I say this because it will give the idea the story is told many years later, and told to children who don't need to know the underlying LotR weight of things in regard to Bilbo's tale. Sam wants to be funny and scary and exciting, but not traumatise his kids, not after what Sam himself went through in destroying the ring! Basing his bedtime version on Bilbo's 'sanitized' version of his adventures seems appropriate to me. The main reason I would like Sam for the voiceover is because I thought of the idea. Yes, Me! And so I know it is without doubt the best idea anyone could come up with. I mean that humbly, of course! <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />

So: voiceover. Oh all right.. Have your say... If we have a voiceover - whose voice?
I have a crazy idea...
What if it's tolkien? that would really bring the audience out of the story, but think about it...
We go into a classroom/study where Tolkien is grading papers, and suddenly he writes "In a hole in the ground..." And then we have the intro scene with Tolkien doing the voiceover, much like he does in the book itself.
Is that too crazy?/?
[quote="Tinuviel":fe3a817a]I have a crazy idea...
What if it's tolkien? that would really bring the audience out of the story, but think about it...
We go into a classroom/study where Tolkien is grading papers, and suddenly he writes "In a hole in the ground..." And then we have the intro scene with Tolkien doing the voiceover, much like he does in the book itself.
Is that too crazy?/?[/quote:fe3a817a]

That's idea isn't too crazy, no. <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />

Even though Tolkien isn't alive, though, I think a cool idea would be to do it with Christopher Tolkien, in the same setting you had, as if Christopher Tolkien is trying to give you the connecting bridge to his father's grand work, even though the Hobbit is as well. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />
That is actually a cool idea, Tin.... 8-) My concern, however, is that The Hobbit will become a Fantasy Story rather than a Legendary Story from Real History... Or would it? Mmmmm.. ??? I wonder what the others think?
Well let me just add that the Hobbit was written differently than LOTR. He wrote in 2nd person (sort of, at some parts) and I recall us having a discussion somewhere that we don't want to make the Hobbit more serious and dark than it should be, so why not lighten the mood with a narrator.
And why not just have Chritopher Tolkien PLAY JRR Tolkien????
An idea certainly worth considering, Tin. I'm keen to hear what the others say. Cheers. (I'm of to work, darn nabbit!)
Well, I, for one, think it should be Bilbo narrating, because it's Bilbo's story after all. And he should be telling it to A young Frodo and the other young cousins, nephews, nieces etc.

I tend towards agreeing with GB on this one- Bilbo seems the sensible choice to me with Sam as second choice. That was till I read Tin's idea- which I do find rather appealing- its certainly an unexpected way and fresh way to begin. In fact the more I think about it the more I like it!
Bugger it Tin now I'm back to being undecided!!!
So we have Four main possibles (I think :? - hope I did my counting right).

(1) No voiceover.
(2) Voiceover: Bilbo's voice (or scene talking to young Frodo et al??)
(3) Voiceover: Sam (many many moons later - as old Hobbit)
(4) Voiceover: Tolkien himself (played by actor if we see him - Christopher??)

Alright. Arguments forth comrades!
Mustn't be a coward... I think Bilbo might seem most appropriate. The Hobbit is his bit of the Red Book, showing his (?) humorous slant on things! (Love Tolkien - not sure it would work - could though... Oh sh#*te! No voiceover? Oh Heron! Have I gone soft on Sam now...? This is actually hard!)
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