Yes very true Illuvitar and I agree re CGI. However do you think we are ready for good solid acting roles from fully CGI Humans and Elves? Blue, Alien Navi are one thing, but I dont know if the tech is good enough to expect Bafta award winning performances just yet. Having said that, the Ainur and the beginning would be glorious in full CGI magnificence...
Thread: Silmarillion, The Movie
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We don't need to expect to get a Bafta out of it! As long as the overall realizing of The Silmarillion as a film to fit in line with the others that have been made is good enough for me. A Bafta would be good but the actual making of the film from begining to its end and made GOOD is of primary importance first to me. And incidentally, we do see Humans turn up in Avatar and over the course of the film "become" Na'Vi where as there are those there whom are ALREADY Na'Vi and we just buy it straight away, well most of us do anyway. Some criticize Avatar but it is a pretty-good looking film so as long as the realization of The Silmarillion is good you can have good actors like Andy Serkis being Gollum and Caesar in Rise of the Planet of the Apes and the actors who are the Na'Vi that could just as easily be John Hurt, Alan Rickman, Edris Elba, Naomi Rapace etc, etc their good acting skills would shine through the CGI. Surely you can understand and get that point already without me having to explain it to you. You must be able to already know that without me having to go-out-of-my-way to point it out. to me it is instinctive.
If there's a group of people on film who are really in the range of around 5 feet 8 inches to 6 feet tall, for example, I could easily enough imagine them all as being a foot taller.
And don't include a yardstick anywhere in the scene
I think notable divergences could be avoided -- for instance, as long as Thingol (described as the tallest of Eru's children) is not relatively short or something, compared to someone standing next to him.
Anyway I wouldn't expect any director to limit casting to people who are actually close to seven feet tall!
Of course not! As long as they are GOOD actors and the filming technology go hand-in-hand to both compliment one-another then you have already got a winning combination. Short, medium, tall actors its all the same as long as they make the film come ALIVE then its a fantastic possibility!
With respect Illuvatar, I will be expecting award winning performances from all, real or CG actors in a Sil movie. Just as we saw in TLOTR's.... I enjoyed Avatar, but it was hardly Shakespeare, and Sigourney is one of my favourite actors.
It doesn't need to be Shakespeare to be a great film BREGO!!! Where is your brain at!!?? If an award or many are granted to a Silmarillion film then FINE!! That's a bonus, of course! I would not dispute that if it were to happen! But no ones saying that Avatar is expected to be a Shakespearan performance just because it is a more computer generated image affair! As compared to a picture that is more conventional. As soon as anyone begins to discuss a film heavily laden with computer graphics suddenly people like you suddenly down-grade it to not being worthy of say any standard other than Shakespeare! Well no one is going into making a film say like The Silmarillion with the intention of competing with or attempting to be better than Shakespeare in the first place!! The intention is to make a damn good film first-and-foremost. Avatar, the LOTR's trilogy, soon-to-be: The Hobbit, the Star Wars saga, they are all films where the magnitude of the story and realizing it comes first, ALWAYS!! We can debate the quality of the prequel trilogy and there would be good grounds for being disappointed there, fine, done I accept that! But any kudos should not be the driving force to making the film it should be about utilizing EVERY CONCEIVABLE METHOD, whether technologically current or traditional tried-and-tested tricks of the eye, as long as it works and a true EPIC maste-=piece is created, that's then icing on the cake! Trying to hammer this point home into the defiant mind sets of people like you is like pulling teeth! Many others get this point instantaneously, why can't you!!!??? What are you even talking about anyway????
Surely Peter Jackson has proved his worth once-over already with regards to the LOTR's and is currently in the process of proving himself again right now with The Hobbit so it's inevitable that the Creme-de la-Creme would fall to The Silmarillion and with him doing it it would naturally fall to him in making it his very own Magnus Opus!! He's proved himself twice, so it's a foregone conclusion that The Silmarillion will work out just fine if ever committed to film. And with WETA digital being as good as it is currently and a Silmarillion project may be off in the future five years from now say, who knows what leaps and strides the filmic technologies are going to take! Get behind it, because whether you like -it-or-not, its more than likely that it is going to happen at some point in the future, its just people like you need to be dragged into the 21st century to get with the program... It seems so blatantly obvious, why not to you????? Your one of these people that no matter what someone says to you if can't be done! It can be done and it will be proved to you and everybody who wants to think like you do that in time, it WILL BE DONE! and it will be proved to you that it can be done.. you wait and see!!! So GET USED TO IT!!!
And with WETA digital being as good as it is currently and a Silmarillion project may be off in the future five years from now say,...
Granted it's conjecture, but why five years? The rights to The Silmarillion belong to the Tolkien Estate and there is currently no indication that Christopher Tolkien plans to sell the film rights (nor will the book automatically enter the public domain with his eventual passing).
I've read that possibly, to the contrary, the rights have been sold and it was aquired reasonably cheap. it is common knowledge to keep assuming that Christopher Tolkien is the bad guy misery-guts holding onto the rights of all the Tolkiin literature, but it may just be he has held-out long enough for the best dea to come along. Its all about what book came out first as opposed to which one succeeded it and so-on. The Hobbit was written then followed by The Lord of the Rings trilogy to then be followed by The Silmarillion in the order of publishing history. So by that reckoning the closer you get to the gap between the last book being published and to now, there is not that much of a gap in time as compared to The Hobbit which was published a lot longer before. Hence why the litigation rights and court room wranglings went on for so long. I feel as though the Tolkien estate is just holding out for the best deal and why not? After all, these films are bringing Tolkeins material to a wider masses of people that would not have other-wise have probably read his . Film bridges that gap and is a visual epitaph to J.R.R. Tolkiens mastery of writing. It can only play to the good. And doesn't it strike you as if they aquired The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit rights to make a film out of them all that it is not that difficult and therefore a fore-gone conclusion that the most logical thing that is now going to happen is The Silmarillion will inevitably follow suit? Makes perfect sense to me!!! Maybe more of you need to get onto the same page for once!
Quote: (from one source upon the internet which can be debatable I know, but here it is none-the-less)
Peter Jackson to Film 95 Hour Adaptation of Silmarillion
New Zealand’s best known movie maker will film an $800 million adaptation of JR Tolkiens book The Silmarillion it was revealed today.
The announcement was made by Robert Shaye, co-CEO of New Line Cinema who will be funding and distributing the five films.
‘We are pleased to announce that we now own the adaptation rights to this book and that Peter Jackson has agreed to produce and direct it,’ Shaye said.
While the rights to Tolkien book The Hobbit were recently sold off for multi-million dollar sums Shaye told reporters that The Silmarillion was ‘surprisingly cheap.’
‘Nobody owned it,’ Shaye said. ‘The Tolkien estate gave it to us for virtually nothing. Isn’t that crazy?’
Details of the adaptation are scares. It is understood that it will consist of five films, each roughly twenty hours long – although it is understood that the initial cinematic releases might be edited down to less than a dozen hours.
The first film, Ainulindalë is scheduled for release in 2018 but already fans of Jackson and Tolkien are buzzing with anticipation.
‘This is going to be totally awesome,’ wrote independent film critic Harry Knowles on his popular web-review site AintitCool.com. ‘I can’t wait to see the scene where Eru is singing and the rest of the Ainur join in but Melkor wants to sing his own song. That is just gonna' be balls-to-the-wall f**king amazing – especially if the rumours about Christopher Walken playing Melkor are true. Christopher Walken rocks!’
It is also understood that Jackson is planning to move away from digital representations of large battles – many of which occur in the third film, the Quenta Silmarillion.
‘What we did with Lord of the Rings was groundbreaking at the time but is now standard in the industry,’ said a spokesperson for Weta workshop. ‘What Peter hopes to do this time around is film real battles with real weapons and real carnage.’
The Screen Actors Guild has yet to comment on Jacksons plan to butcher his cast but legions of Tolkien fans are signing up to die for the film.
‘I’d like to be eaten by a Balrog in the Battle of Sudden Flame, but I’ll probably end up being stabbed by some Orc,’ said one fan. ‘But that’s okay too.’
Jackson will need to keep some Tolkien fanatics alive, since all dialog in the film will be delivered in the fictional languages Quenya and Eldarin. The movies will not feature subtitles.
‘If that’s Peter’s vision then that’s what we want to do,’ Bob Shaye told reporters at a post-announcement press conference. ‘As far as I’m concerned it’s now Peter’s eight hundred million dollars and I know he’ll make five great movies with it.’
Shaye also admitted that he personally had not found time to read The Silmarillion but he was not concerned about its commercial prospects.
‘Peter Jackson and Tolkien,’ he said. ‘How can you go wrong?’
This was May or June 2008 but the path could well have been laid so Peter Jackson could flow neatly into The Hobbit and complete that film before embarking upon a few other projects and all the time The Silmarillion is being planned within the background. After the hiatus of The Hobbit dies down and Jackson has got a few of his other projects done such as a follow-up to Tin-Tin and possibly The Damn Busters and one-or-two others he will move nicely into The Silmarilion production.
I've read that possibly, to the contrary, the rights have been sold and it was aquired reasonably cheap.
Please cite the source, or post the link. I'm not aware of any sale myself.
I feel as though the Tolkien estate is just holding out for the best deal and why not? After all, these films are bringing Tolkeins material to a wider masses of people that would not have other-wise have probably read his. Film bridges that gap and is a visual epitaph to J.R.R.Tolkiens mastery of writing. It can only play to the good.
That may be your position but it's not necessarily Christopher Tolkien's view. I think Christopher Tolkien's own public statement -- that The Lord of the Rings is 'peculiarly unsuitable for transformation into visual dramatic form' -- implies that he would not have sold the film rights to The Lord of the Rings had it been up to him.
And doesn't it strike you as if they aquired The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit rights to make a film out of them all that it is not that difficult and therefore a fore-gone conclusion that the most logical thing that is now going to happen is The Silmarillion will inevitably follow suit? Makes perfect sense to me!!! Maybe more of you need to get onto the same page for once!
Get on to whose page however? Tolkien sold the rights to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings back when he was alive, mainly because of tax reasons it appears -- and I would not agree at all that we thus necessarily have a foregone conclusion that Christopher Tolkien would sell the rights to the Silmarillion.
As soon as The Children of Hurin was published, the Estate announced on their official website that there are no plans for a film, for instance.
I just noted that you edited in your source Illuvitar.
We've discussed that here already and it's not true
For example, from your source (my emphasis):
'The Screen Actors Guild has yet to comment on Jacksons _plan to butcher his cast_ but legions of Tolkien fans are signing up _to die_ for the film.
Someone on the web is having a bit of fun.
I will site the refernece, just one moment...
http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/peter-jackson-to-film-95-hour-adaptation-of-silmarillion/
Make of it what you will... There are others. I will endevour to site them here ach in duecourse and I will do so sinscerely alright...
Illuvitar, see my previous post.
Someone on the web is having a bit of fun, as I say. Please post any other source if you have one. One would think this would appear on the Estate's own website in any case.
Its not just that, I have read other sources too and heard some interview hints from Peter Jackson himself, again, I will endeavour to source them out and will post accordingly.. Bear with me and I will do so, o.k...
OK but as the internet is full enough of people joking around, or misinformation, I'll need to see something compelling. Here is the actual quote from the Estate's website regarding The Children of Hurin at least:
Are there any plans to produce a feature film from The Children of Húrin?
There are no plans of this nature in the foreseeable future.
Short and to the point
Illuvitar, you may think that any slap dash, get it out quick and stuff the acting will do re Tolkien. However I think you will find that despite the fact that a lot of fans were unhappy with some of the choices PJ made with story changes, we all agree that there is some very fine acting indeed in the existing films, and we all expect the same from any further movies.
Re Shakespeare, I consider some of Tolkien's world, words and fiction to be up there with that of WS. Therefor I expect any acting should be consistent with such fantastic and great tales.
That's "where my heads at" Buddy. So if your so keen to see a movie version of the Sil, then why not attempt it yourself and see what the reaction is if its not seen as a quality production.
Brego watch your mouth smart-ass!
I do not, IN THE SLIGHTEST, think there shoulbe IN ANY WAY-SHAPE-OR-FORM be a slap-dash attempt with such a literary works as The Silmarillion!!! You DO NOT UNDERSTAND my want and desire for the UP-MOST of standards when it comes to dealing with the likes of THIS particular masterpiece. The UT-MOST quality will only do, and it would be UTTERLY FANTASTIC if I were to somehow be involved in the creation, inception and execution in the most positive of sense of The Silmarillion... I would ATTACK such an oppourtunity with as much enthusiasim as I could muster-mister!! YOU DO NOT KNOW ME AT ALL to know that I would want to approach this with a lacsidasical manner. NO WAY!!! The way in which I think of this film and the types of directors I tend to gravitate towards are the likes of Stanley Kubrick, George Lucas,Stephen Spielberg, Ridley Scott, James Cameron, Christopher Nolan, Michael Mann, Tony Scott, Peter Jackson and there are more but real intellectual directors and direct thinking...
I want The Silmarillion to be made as a film but OBVIOUSLY with the best of intentions to both honor and thus compliment such an enterprise whilst at the same time there is scope for the readers to enjoy the book and also have the choice whether-or-not to embrace the film versions or not as would the film goers. The book of The Silmarillion is always there and both parties get what they want and serve to hopefully compliment one-another. Why trade one thing off over the other? Why can't it be a win-win situation for all? After all, the reason we are currently here discussing this subject is because at heart we are all Tolkien fans and surely that is what is important. Film has a way of reaching wider masses in tandem with the book of the same subject matter.
I agree with Illuvitar - I definitely wouldn't want to have "Silmarillion" the movie. I mean - it's is obviously very difficult but not impossible to film it - so I can see that happening. And if there's Silmarillion movie - I'm watching it, but I'm fine without it. I love the book too much (not that I don't love The Hobbit or LOTR) to see it being cut into a couple of movies, complied with one director or another, producers, Hollywood rules, box offices. The book is a magic, a mystery, it's a different thing for every person who reads it (everytime when you read it) and it surely requires a lot of imagination from the reader. I don't see Silmarillion's majestic, mythic, gracious atmosphere being translated well into some movie - considering how the movies in our world are being made.
Indis you misunderstand me, I want the film to be made of The Silmarillion, I have wanted that for such a long time! I'm all for a series of films being made of it and I was countering what Brego was dispelling in an earlier comment so you and I are in opposite ends on this here. I want to see a film projct attempted but many do not. Well, my answer to that is it is your UTTER LOSS!!! But I bet you and many nay-sayer like you after complaining like the childish individuals that you are wouldn't begrudge yourselves going to see it though if it ever was made into a film. Just like all those complaining double-stardard types that came out of the wood-work when the Lord of the Rings came out and soon to happen I'm sure with the up-coming The Hobbit now, they complained and moaned in their miserable corners but it still did'n't stop hem from going to see it anyway though did it! Double-standard way of thinking, do-as-I-say-but-not-as-I-do! It's a joke!
You lot would still go and see The Silmarillion films if they came out you KNOW you all would because fundamentally your all suckers for it deep-down inside and you wouldn't be able to contain yourselves and you know it! I think I know your types of thinking better than you know yourselves! You'd be a sucker for it just as I would, difference is, I know and want it to happen and would ultimately embrace such an enterprise if it were proposed from the out-set as you can have both the book and the film. You get the best-of-both-worlds and everybody wins! If you don't want to see it well don't go and watch it if it were ever to be made, nobody is forcing you to anymore than your being forced to come onto this forum. Just get out of the way for those of us whom are willing to embrace the idea if that is how you truely feel about it! Or change your mind a little and be flexible for both the book and a film franchise to exist side-by-side with one-another. Why not let it be a win-win situation for ALL concerned instead of this stuffy"It Can't Be Done" misery-guts attitude! If those types don't truly like it then p!@s off! That's what I say!
How old are you Iluvitar? 12? Get it together and discuss like a Human or whatever you are. Gosh did you get out of the wrong side of the bed or something.
Quote:
Brego watch your mouth smart-ass!
Brego watch your mouth smart-ass!
Quote:
If those types don't truly like it then p!@s off!
If those types don't truly like it then p!@s off!
Illuvitar, watch yours, too, if you don't want to be banned from this site. This is a "family-friendly" site where topics are expected to be discussed in a civil manner. Resorting to calling people names because they don't agree with you is not acceptable here. Consider this an official warning.
Alright, Valedhelgwath, alright... I will, I will.
And incidentally, to other "certain" readers, I didn't get out of the wrong side of the bed or anything, this is me speaking my mind to typical same-ole', same-ole' thinking types that you hear time-and-time again whenever there is a franchise that comes out, you lot end-up saying the SAME SELDOM THINGS over and over and over. In the meantime the project that your all complaining about still goes ahead and gets made and usually it turns out o.k. in the end. Blade Runner had to prove itself to many over the years where-as some got onboard instantaneously. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, o.k., we're all agreed it did let alot of people down in the long-run and dash many hopes for what they may have thought they were expecting. One or two quite interesting action set pieces though, like the Pod Race and the three person lightsabre battle, but that in-and-of-itself is not enough to sustain an ENTIRE THREE PART FRANCHISE!! Is it! You need more!! Trepidation did exist in some quarters for the LOTR's but on the whole it was widely received and I've always felt that maybe the Star Wars prequel Trilogy should have had a more biblical feel and scale to it as the Lord of the Rings did. Revenge of the Sith wasn't bad in places as it tied ever-more into Star Wars: A New Hope. But if you had taken the grandure of the LOTR's and added little bits of futuristic technology you essentially would have ended up with a more evocative portrayle of the Star Wars prequels. That's why the LOTR's trilogy as well as the first Star Wars trilogy (4,5 & 6) work so much better because their execution was done with a better state-of-mind. Most things committed to film usually work out in the end with the exception of a few disappointments along the way, some being: the way various bits were handled in the Aliens vs Predators series and the same goes for the Star Wars prequel trilogy. They were only kinda-o.k. in places but that is not acceptable in many ways when you are dealing with a franchise and expecting loyal fans and those new to the franchise to go and pay their good money just to be let down and have their hopes dashed by annoying things like Jar Jar Binks! If that character had not had acted so STUPID and George Lucas did not sort-of insult our intelligences with that ANNOYING character it may not have been so bad! That's why as compared to the Star Wars prequel trilogy the LOTR's wins hand-down. You hardly ever hear of THAT MANY people complain about it as compared to the Phantom Menace and the others. I went and saw The Phantom Menace in 3D simply because I was curious and want to prime myself for when they lead up to the Luke Trilogy, thats what I am waitinf for. There are those few Tolkien fans who are nit-picky but on the whole that's two for team-Jackson as I am supremely confident that The Hobbit will ROCK!!!!! Yoy wait and see! :-)
I share your enthusiasm Illuvitar and too believe that the Hobbit will be mind blowing. I'm starting to avoid looking on line for imagery and such to maximize the surprise.
Re The Sil, of course I would love to see a visual version of this masterpiece, and I think I wasn't clear regarding CGI. One day we will be watching movies which contain 100% believable human (and Elf) characters which look, act and feel real. I don't think we are there yet, but it wont be long.
Hullo Sam, hullo Illuvatar, how are you?
Illuvatar, I have been away for personal reasons and am just catching up. I noted that Val, one of the very very first council members has had 'speaks' with you. I hope you will understand what he said, this site is NOT a debating site as it were, it is a gentle , peaceable place where old and very very young alike gather to share our love and esteem of professor Tolkien, along with our hopes and dreams about what should come from the books and any appropriate movies in the future. We all have our thoughts, and what might be sheer tosh to one is manna to another. We are allowed to be passionate here, disagree strongly if we choose, but not allowed to say one person's thoughts are silly, archaic , whatever. We are all beautiful unique flowers in a huge fantastically beautiful garden.
So, if there are disagreements, the rules of engagement are kindness, considerateness and careful speech. We would like the children that come and participate to go away with the thought that we are a step above cruel and mean bickering.
That said, I look forward to reading your future posts.
And Val, each time you visit us i can smell the tang of the sea and hear the gulls and it is very very soothing. Thank you for making such efforts to come. I can only guess how extremely busy you are and fatigued at the end of a day.
Alright Leelee, o.k... :-)
Well Illuvatar, your gentle compliance holds you high already in my eyes. Thankyou.
My thinking is there would be a combination of Computer Generated Images (characters) along side quality human actors as well. I'm thinking along the lines of:
Kenneth Branna, John Hurt, Dominic West, Lena Heady, Ian McDirmid, Gerard Butler, John Shrapnel, Hugh Jackman, Russle Crowe, Natalie Portman, Hilary Swank, Gary Oldman, Mark Strong, Colin Firth, Andy Serkis, michael Caine, Tom Hardy, Christian Bale, Idris Elba, The cast from Dowton Abbey (they are numerous) Michael Fastbender, Helen Mirren, Kate Blanchet, Judi Dench, Hugo Weaving, Naomi Raopace, Daniel Craig, Helena Bonham Carter, Charlize Theron, the cast from Harry Potter (maybe) there are many, many, MANY, English, American, European and International cast that can be approach over the course of the contnual developing The Silmarilion franchise.
Heh... O.k. Thats alright... :-) x
Illuvitar, thank you for taking my reprimand with good grace. Looking back it was maybe a tad stern, but I wanted to stop any arguments from escalating further. I've not been around for a while, and didn't intend coming back to throw my weight around. Where it not for it being a long bank holiday in the UK, and the uncertainty of whether any other council members might be around over that period, I would have left it for one of the "younger" ones, who you are probably more familiar with to deal with. I'm sure Leelee's reprimand would have sounded far fairer and eloquent, though just as effective. I'm sure she practices the technique on her children, while according to my wife, I just scare mine.
Anyway, enough said on the matter. I look forward to reading more of your posts. I agree, the Silmarillion would make a great movie, but even more so than LotR, I think it would take a lot of adapting to convert into movie format. Unlike LotR, the Silmarillion has very little dialogue. I could almost picture a film adaption being made with a lot of narration rather than actual dialogue, and I think that would work. It would certainly provide that epic, biblical feel to it.
By the way, I'm no lawyer but this information reflects what I at least thought to be the case in Britain anyway, keeping in mind the Silmarillion was published in 1977 and Christopher Tolkien is still alive obviously. The History of Middle-Earth series (which essentially contains much of the constructed Silmarillion) was published even later of course.
The time period for copyright has grown continually longer over the last three centuries. Many think it is now absurdly long. In Britain the Copyright Act of 1842 introduced the idea of post mortem copyright protection; it established a copyright period of 42 years from the date of first publication or 7 years after the author's death, whichever was the longer.
The Copyright Act of 1911 extended the period to 50 years after an author's death; and the European Union Directive on Term of Copyright (adopted by the UK on 1 January 1996) further extended the standard period to 70 years p.m.a. Thus in 2009 works by authors who died in 1939 or any year thereafter remain "in copyright".
And while the 1977 Silmarillion was published posthumously, as it is an edited and constructed version compiled by Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay, and even includes a measure of invention, I'm not sure if that makes Christopher Tolkien, and/or Mr. Kay, 'essentially' the author(s) with respect to copyright...
... but in any case there is more information here (if anyone knows if the following information is in error or outdated, please let me know).
Alright Valedhelgwath. I hear you. Thank you for your equal response back to me.
Incidentaly, can you upload images upon here as there are examples I would like to make note of and share for discerning and discussion purposes?
Years ago when I was a lot more active, images were banned because of the bandwidth they used. I haven't heard that anything has changed from those early days, but maybe one of the newer CM's could give a more definite answer.
I think even giving links to images stored outside of the site was frowned upon, in case they were "inappropriate material", but I'm not sure whether that has changed either.
I am not aware of any rules being relaxed, but perhaps it is time for Taz to put them down in black and white once more on a separate thread, this way all those who have forgotten and those who are brand new can read and not have to think about it any longer.
Being a free lance writer(I hated being an editor, too much politics) I just wish that a work would remain in the family as it were, not abused or touched i any way by anyone outside the family from generation to generation. Just as when someone dies and the relatives remaining must pay the death taxes on whatever properties are given or left to them, so it would be good in my opinion if the same thing could apply to a family line. Only if no one was interested then would the public domain as it were be allowed to apply. i always feel sick at the idea that something you worked hard at and had a certain set of values and beliefs can be at some point trashed and muddled and,,,,,,,,,, How I wish people that are making movies would just learn to write for their own selves! i like very much that Steven Spielberg actually talked to Herge about Tin Tin series and when he died, talked to his wife and at HER invitation came to the studio of the late master and talked about things. I would not mind that so much if it were not for the fact that people that do that often worm their way into changing things and putting such pressure on the person who gave consent that control is lost anyway. The power of money.
Why I was asking if you could upload any pictures to accompany the text that we type upon the chat forum here is that I wanted to add some pictures (obviusly you would vet the post prior to it going public so you would know first what was coming) as I wanted to show a series of stills which I feel would generally represent how the idea of The Silmarillion's beginings/origins would look like. I was going to make a cross-section of imagery and cut and paste them upon here offering descriptions of the progress from one scene to another in genral places. My mind was, at this moment, focused on certain key areas that rouse my intellectual thinking more than others such as the: "in the begining" section and the Ainur descending upon the "newly formed world", Ungoliant and how she would look visually in a film-like manner as compared to Melkor-come-Morgoth whom he is thus compared to the land and then to a man and so on. It would be a real interesting project. I am working upon some imagery in Photoshop at the moment for my own personal amusement. I was on some other forums where they let you upload imagery, there is one for the Prometheus film and many others. I would like the opportunity to do the same upon here (respectfully obviously) I would sincerely not offend any one save for the purists who would possibly say: "I wouldn't see Morgoth looking like that! More like this! Or Ungoliant would look much like that too and maybe a bit more like this! Perhaps you at Administration may want to consider making that application available to us upon her to be able to use.
Back to topic. Thought of a couple of great actors.
Tilda Swinton as Nienna. Michael Fasbender as Thingol. Daniel Ratcliff as Maeglin. Danny Davito as Mim. Hugh Jackman as Hurin. Anne Hathaway as Nienor. Toni Collette as Haleth. Charleze Theron as Melian. Just a few. Imagine trying to cast these films, there are truly hundreds of crucial characters.
Most DEFINATELY! Definately YES Brego! Rachel Weize is quite an interesting looking actor, I've ALWAYS THOUGHT Huge Jackman would suit a character in Tolkien universe down to a tee! I thought he would equally have made a cool-looking Bard The Bowman as he (Hugh Jackman) has, to me, an elvish look about him at times in certain films while retaining his human qualities obviously so in that regard I think he would fit rather well into a Tolkien characters role. And I DEFINATELY think he would fit TO-A-TEE into The Silmarillion universe if it were ever conceived of to fill. He would be a very good choice of actor and I would be VERY happy if he were considered for such a role! He and many others I can think of too! I will post a "dream List" of what I believe would be quality actors and quality directors to specifically capture certain broken-up sections that would be specifically catered for and suitable for those specifc directors in mind for those crucial parts of the story telling process and directing integrity.
I am not in favour of any of those actors though I admire Rachel, she has proven herself a serious actress and comedic as well.
For the most part i cannot as hard as i try bear Hollywood actors. And even if I like something they have done, there is something about them as a rule that precludes my ever wanting to see them again. i cannot explain it. Perhaps it is that we hear too much about the frivolous lives most lead and too much publicity somehow makes them to familiar which in turn destroys any mistique that was there to mezmerize.
I always love it when a complete unknown comes along and absolutely wows them, or at least someone who keeps a very very low profile and is more classically trained. So I have virtually no one in mind. I suppose whoever they might be they would be persons of high integrity to begin with, persons who actually help the poor and do all they can to better their city , province, country. Else to me it is like a thin film of yucck clinging to them that sort of interferes with noble characters they play. It's just me.
I do understand Leelee where you are coming from too! I maybe didn't mention that unknowns are just as important as well... Henry Cavell is an up-coming actor as is Michael Fastbender. Nicole Kidman is a good actor too! But if the project ever took a certain amount of time to get off the ground that could be years just for pre-production alone - who knows what new talent may appear upon the scene between now and then - if ever! As I said I have a whole list of people in mind but often, for me, that is just a starting point visually. Eventually it may not necessarily stick on that actor. I've seen Colin Farrel in a medieval film and most of his films and his acting are tiresome!! But I will give credit where credit is due and say that he was a good actor in the film Tigerland, VERY good in my opinion! I feel tiresome towards a lot of Eric Bana and many of his films, however, credit due to his acting prowess in the film Chopper and I do like The Hulk franchise and only watched him because he was in that but I would have preferred they equally cast someone else first for the Banner charcater and wished they kept it as David Banner as it sounds more of a scientists name instead of Bruce Banner which is a little too close to Bruce Wayne for me which does sound kinda cool! To me anyway... Liam Neeson is also, to me, an obvious good choice for a good role of substance!
I do agree that the casting for a hypothetical film project such as The Silmarillion would have to be of BIBLICAL description to make sure that it was done right as that is of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE too me too!
Back to topic. Thought of a couple of great actors. Tilda Swinton as Nienna. Michael Fasbender as Thingol. Daniel Ratcliff as Maeglin. Danny Davito as Mim. Hugh Jackman as Hurin. Anne Hathaway as Nienor. Toni Collette as Haleth. Charleze Theron as Melian. Just a few. Imagine trying to cast these films, there are truly hundreds of crucial characters.
Wow, some interesting suggestions, Brego. Danny DeVito as Mim wouldn't cross my mind, but I like the idea.
Although the discussion about possible cast is very entertaining, in this particular movie I'd rather see actors and actresses I didn't know before.
These characters are so precious to me, and I wouldn't want them to be "just another role" for the actors squezed between some hollywood blockbuster and commercial ad.
It may look silly, but I would like to watch the people that in my mind won't be related with other characters from other movies.
Therefore seeing some "fresh faces" would be more fun for me.
I must say I'd have a big, big problem with casting Luthien, since Liv Tyler is one of the most beautiful actresses in my opinion (if not the most beautiful) and she already played Arwen. Her acting skill isn't spectacular, I know, but when it comes to appearance - she has this ethereal, elvish aura.
As do I. She (Liv Tyler) is so synonomous with Arwen now and The Lord of the Rings trilogy as a whole that it would be a bit like repeating the same role... perhaps. Who knows. I mean John-Rhys Davis played Gimli and provided the voice for Treebeard that many actors that featured in other films of Tolkien's and soon The Hobbit could be given voice-over work provided, I hope, that they change, the sound, mould it a little so it does not sound the same or similar to compare it to another of their former/previous performances. I feel Nicole Kidman equally has a very elvin look about her face at key moments when you view her acting performances within her other films. She to me has a very graceful way about her Grace Kelly-ish which is ironic as she is up to be playing her in a film soon (I may be thinking of the Coco Chanel as she did do an advert/commercial about her as well) and also has a Kate Blanchet playing Galadriel type-of-presence to her acting ability.
Liv Tyler could play Luthein as well as she and Arwen were meant to be of startling similarity. Some more could be Naomi Watts as silver foot and Jacquin Phoenix as Mandos.
Iluvatar agreed on Hugh Jackman, would have been a perfect Bard however he would be great as Earendil.
Luke Evans as Bard The Bowman however is an equally good choice as well! I fell anyway. He was very good with his performance in Thor and Zeus in the Immortals so I'm pretty confident that he will make a pretty good, if not, VERY good Bard The Bowman. With Hugh Jackman, my thinking was that he would have a kind of Gerard Butler type grit to him whilst, at-the-same-time, have an elvin quality to him even though as I remember Bard The Bowman did not have any elvin connection/s at all just that he (Hugh Jackman) would be suitable to a world full of mythical beings. He would also have retained a-sort-of Faramir-type quality as well, a man who is capable of reasoning while still managing to get the job done. But that said, I'm sure Luke Evans shall be very interesting in his portrayle.
Another thought occured to me recently, we see Peter Jackson and his producers telling the Lord of the Rings then moving progressively back to tell The Hobbit and here we are discussing the hypothetical scenario/s of moving ever-further back to such works as The Silmarillion and/or works in-between. I was thinking that perhaps this method is not such a bad thing after-all. Perhaps the best way to possibly tackle The Silmarillion is not, at first, to jump ALL the way back to the VERY beginning but more-or-less, two thirds of the way there. Tell Say the middle section of what is perhaps filmable by these-day's standards and if/when those parts of The Silmarillion's story gains popular momentum, move steadily further and further back. Capturing the very ESSENCE of what The Silmarillion is, much like what George Lucas did originally for Star Wars: A New Hope. HOWEVER!!! if a production company was to do that, to learn from past actions and not embark upon a trilogy or how many films it could take if you were to start in the middle of The Silmarillion and create a series of films that come across like the Star Wars prequels; a lot of good technology, filming techniques, special effects but fundamentally a wooden, stillted-feeling running at the heart of the story arc. That and some "questionable" acting performances and directorial "problems" as I saw and felt help it to fall-short of its overall potential.
The technology now is ready to tell a story of I would say the second half or, as I said, two-thirds of The Silmarillion with the added intention of revisiting closer and closer the beginning as the film technology advances. It also makes commercial sense as well as film-fan gratification as you get the visual "concept" of The Silmarillion out there into the public domain and that of the public conciousness. Trying to make a couple of well filmed "begining" sections that would probably play out in a rather abstracted manner would perhaps be a hard sell at first for a second generation of film goers in tandem with "seasoned" LOTR's fans and up coming The Hobbit fans-to-be. Find a good point in The Silmarillion to go in at then try and realise the earlier parts still at a gradual later stage. It may take time to do it this way but pehaps that is better than alienating fans at first with what I would welcome to see with 2001: A Space Odyssey/Abstracted film effects charting the "origins" of it ALL! Somehow realising "The Music" of Eru Illuvitar and of "The Firstbon" of his thoughts, Melkor, Manwe and all the rest of it. Then, over the course of two-or-three films, we get into what essentially looks like "Humanoid-looking" characters that come to be known as the Ainur (angels I guess), then their descendance to Ea (Earth) and the troubles/strifes that would follow with Morgoth, Ungoliant and thus all that ever-after follows suit. We lead-up to the so called "half-way" point at which the film makers came in and all the threads are nicely and neatly woven together in one GIGANTIC film tapestry that ecompasess the ENTIRE, FAR-reaching saga!!
That, perhaps, might be one of the best courses of action to take...
Good point Illuvatar. The Anals of Arda progressively working backwards to the beginning. This is great as the most heavily CGI requirements would be needed at the beginning and by then we will have access to tech not yet invented. Just had a thought.... We have perhaps had a very brief glimps of what lies beyond the Void into Illuvatar's mind. The scene of Mithradir's return in TTTs. "stars wheeled overhead and every day was as a life age of the Earth.....". Simply beautiful words delivered beautifully by Sir Ian.
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I must say I'd have a big, big problem with casting Luthien, since Liv Tyler is one of the most beautiful actresses in my opinion (if not the most beautiful) and she already played Arwen. Her acting skill isn't spectacular, I know, but when it comes to appearance - she has this ethereal, elvish aura.
I must say I'd have a big, big problem with casting Luthien, since Liv Tyler is one of the most beautiful actresses in my opinion (if not the most beautiful) and she already played Arwen. Her acting skill isn't spectacular, I know, but when it comes to appearance - she has this ethereal, elvish aura.
There are several up-and-coming young actresses that have Elven appearances. Amanda Seyfried, Anna Paquin, Natalie Portman, Scarlett Johansson would all make good elves, while someone a little older like Kate Beckinsale would make a good Melian. When it comes to Luthien, though, my choice would be Kristen Stewart. She is maybe a little too young at the moment, but by the time filming started she would be older. She has that far-away, ethereal Elven appearance, and her transition from Bella Swan in Twilight to Joan Jett in the Runaways shows her acting ability.
Who would be Beren?
Valedhelgwath wrote: When it comes to Luthien, though, my choice would be Kristen Stewart. She is maybe a little too young at the moment, but by the time filming started she would be older.
Or very much older perhaps!
Illuvitar wrote: Its not just that, I have read other sources too and heard some interview hints from Peter Jackson himself, again, I will endeavour to source them out and will post accordingly.. Bear with me and I will do so, o.k...
As I said... ok... but when are you going to get around to this? Again, as far as I'm aware there are currently no compelling or legitimate sources regarding the sale of film rights to the Silmarillion.
I currently post or ghost at a number of Tolkien message boards, so do you have special information that others do not? And the Estate has a website as well, which currently contains no information about any sale, and I would think this would be rather big news, not to mention quite unexpected given Christopher Tolkien's opinion about making a film based on The Lord of the Rings.
And without a sale (although as I say I'm no expert in copyright law), it could possibly be a considerable length of time before The Silmarillion enters the public domain.
That doesn't mean it isn't fun to speculate in any case, or that anyone shouldn't have fun chatting about a potential film. And again, it's not that it's impossible that you have found something others haven't yet... but if so, again, what is this evidence?
I'm not going to be put on the spot by the likes of you Galin. I'll present writings and text upon here when I am good and ready. Is that at all unclear... There are sources that I have seen before I just don't have them to command for upload at this present time and I don't appriciate your snippy tone towards me in trying to prove myself somehow to you of all people! I mean who are you exactly anyway Mr!?
You sit there and wait until I am ready to find and put up here what I know I read before. Because I know I read some reports upon the subject at hand. What may have happened though in the mean time is that the deal or rumored deal sometimes gets thwarted by litigation processes. So enough of the public challenges Galin and watch your tone in future when you speak to me. It would be better for both of us.
Silmarillion as a movie. I doubt would that even be good, and I also doubt 'when' it would be coming out, if it will ever even happen.
By the way, Illuvatar, Galin may speak sharply at times, but in my opinion, he's one of the most resourceful and knowledgeable people on this site, when it comes to knowledge concerning Tolkien and related things.
I haven't read everything that is included on this thread, nor do I want to, but let me say that whatever he has said, I think you shouldn't get that offended. This is a friendly and peaceful site after all. It would be a shame to ruin that harmony.
And in my opinion, this whole talk about Silmarillion the Movie is ridiculous. The book is magnificent, but I just can't picture it as a movie.
No offense meant to anyone.
- O.W.
(...) So enough of the public challenges Galin and watch your tone in future when you speak to me. It would be better for both of us.
You might be injecting some kind of tone that isn't there Illuvatar, and with respect to necessarily posting sharply in a given example, that too may be subjective in ways, or someone might perceive something is posted sharply due to the ambiguities of posting compared to conversation.
In any case I do challenge any claim that the film rights to The Silmarillion have been sold, or that the Tolkien Estate is currently in negotiations to sell the film rights -- and continue to challenge that, and don't feel it is out of line to do so...
... as I say, especially since one assumes such news would be rather notable news to Tolkien fans all over the web. The evidence that you posted already is rather over the top in places, in my opinion, so I'm guessing you simply didn't read this reference carefully enough before posting it.
And of course you can post any other references whenever you are ready. In my last post I asked 'when' as you had continued to post without adding any. And if this is your answer to my question...
... then so be it.
Again Illuvatar back to topic ( and by the way I agree, Galin is incredibly knowledgable and deserves respect. Having said that if you've read posts you'll see he isn't just picking on you, he shares his picking....it will get you nowhere to take it personally, or bite). Helena Bonam Carter as Haleth, Alexander Sarsgard (spelling) as Fingon, Julian McMahon as Feanor.
I don't agree that I pick on anyone, I just disagree with things I disagree with, or challenge things I think might not be necessarily so.
Illuvatar, for the record I believe that you have read certain statements or opinions on the web, I just doubt they will convince me that the Tolkien Estate has actually sold the film rights to The Silmarillion, or are currently considering doing so.
And for a different kind of example, was it not reported in the news at one point that Christopher Tolkien had 'disowned' one of his sons because of the films? Which CJRT denied as true, and Simon Tolkien himself later publicly agreed was false.
Sometimes even the news is simply new.
May I put in my two cents' worth?
I love The Silmarillion like the Bible, sorry, no offense, and like the Bible it's quite impossible to transfer to film. MAYBE a big-budget series with many seasons... otherwise how would all these thirty or fifty or whatever number you care to name, stories ever be told?
The deep and true problem, however, is that our beloved stories tend to get mangled in the process. I won't deny the wonderful work put forth by Peter Jackson's actors, that have given faces and tones of voice to our heroes (and otherwise), in general pretty good, but I still am not over the surgery practiced on The Lord of the Rings... Glorfindel, for instance, and the twins Elladan and Elrohir, Tom Bombadil, and countless other so-called minor characters. And entire chapters! I was so befuddled by the hobbits jumping on the ferry and then turning up at the gates of Bree. The Old Forest! Tom and Goldberry! The BARROW-DOWNS, for goodness' sake!
I understand dramatic economy, but let's get real: movies come and go, Tolkien is one and alone.
The fact that Silmarillion is clearly divided into chapters makes for wide storytelling, so we would be talking about Beren and Luthien, easily, to say nothing of Turin Turambar that exists in a developed version in The Children of Hurin. Now, regarding the immense backdrop of the entire creation of Arda, I defy any one film to encompass this great mythology. Without impoverishing, hardly likely.
I do love the Jackson trilogy, I won't deny it, but whenever I catch some part on tv, say, I usually end up going back to the book and indulging myself to my heart's content. And I will go see The Hobbit, most certainly, but chances are I will fuss and fume at the deviations from canon.
